Poomsae applications

terryl965

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In reality where fact become indulged by the meer thought of a real life stituation: does the application of so many years ago inside a poomsae really worth the bother? Let take the Palgue, deeper stances for the most part but was developed so many years ago. The Tae Gueks, norrowers stances a little more modern but still over thirty years ago developed. Now if TKD is alway revolving into a better art both spiritually and physically should poomsae not be updated to what is a growing need for real world application?

I am looking forward to some real talk about why the KKW, ITF or any other org out there does not really look into developing an higher need for real life poomsae for the common person training.
 

puunui

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I think that it is difficult enough to try and get everyone to do the forms that we already have in a consistent standardized fashion. It would be impossible if we kept changing the forms every few years based on the latest fashion.
 

StudentCarl

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...should poomsae not be updated to what is a growing need for real world application?

...real life poomsae for the common person training.

Terry, I've spent a lot more time in the real world than studying Taekwondo, so would you expand on this a little on the need you see and any thoughts on what the new stuff might include or look like?

Thanks,
Carl
 
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terryl965

terryl965

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Terry, I've spent a lot more time in the real world than studying Taekwondo, so would you expand on this a little on the need you see and any thoughts on what the new stuff might include or look like?

Thanks,
Carl

Carl I really do not know, I mean everything changes over time. In TKD we have develope the kick so it is more dynamic and powerful. I mean everyday atleast here in Texas it seem somebody gets carjacked or mugged and even robbed. Would knowing application that could or maybe even help somebody in the event this happens.

As far as what it would look like I guess more like a re-action to the action that occurs that will help you get out of it without really getting beat down. Now I know it sounds like one steps could possibly do this or two and three steps. I just know that if TKD or any other art gets revolving I would hope that application would as well, maybe that is why we have SD, so it can take that place.


What brought this up was a decussion I was having on a conference call talking about a poomsae seminar that this instructor was having and he promised for some new application that would be for the modern day real world, so I thought I would bring it up here for some intelligent fedback. I am considering going to this seminar with this other instructor. I do not know him and never heard of him but he has been inmy state for a long time go figure.

Beside I thought this might be a great converstation for the forum section.
 

ralphmcpherson

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Terry, I have found the stances (particularly the deep palgwe stances) to be very important in making self defence techs work for 'real life'. It was interesting at our training camp the other week where one of our 5th dans was taking a self defence class on the beach. This particular 5th dan is a detective for his day job and is using the self defence techs daily in his line of work so I really enjoy hearing his perspective on them. At one point I was working with a yellow belt on a defence against a wrist grab, the yellow belt was trying to use brute force to make the tech work, it was sort of working but in real life I dont think it would have been very credible. At that point the 5th dan walked over and said to the yellow belt that what he was doing was correct but his stance was all wrong. He told him to try it again but to remember the stances from palgwe 2 and to have nice deep stances and drop his weight accordingly. Well, he did it again and I landed very quickly on the sand face first and very nearly had a broken wrist. All he did differently was the stance and it made the world of difference. When I ask the higher ranking black belts why their self defence techs seem to be so much more effective and quicker than the lower belts they all tell me it comes from doing form over and over again. The more I learn the more Ive found this to be true. You can show someone stances, but to really ingrain it into their movements so it will happen subconsciencly form is the way to go in my opinion. As far as actuall specific movements go, I know someone who used the wrist grab defence from palgwe 8 to effectively get away from someone who was dragging them by the wrist, they were female against a much larger male attacker and they said it worked very easily.
 

dancingalone

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I do not think TKD forms (whether you are talking about KKW or ITF ones) need to change drastically to incorporate modern and plausible applications. The applications just need to be thought up of to begin with and then taught in a comprehensive fashion! My opinion why they do not seem to exist in a mainstream way is because the various TKD leadership in any of the TKD orgs have not found the idea of retroactively fitting good applications to the forms to be an important thing to do. They seem content to let this be something individual instructors add on if they are interested in doing so.

But perhaps that is the way it should be? Form applications can and should be rather personalized to fit the personality and physical characteristics of the martial artist. This way the material becomes theirs more likely so than learning something rote and generic.

There is a hammer fist strike in one of the forms I practice. Most people interpret it as a hammerfist to a sensitive spot like the temple or the collarbone, which is a fine application. But I like the practice this part as sort of a 'bridge hand' which is used to close the gap between opponents and then gain entry for a subsequent strike. It works for me because I have the size, reach, and strength to use it against most anyone short of a WWE wrestler, but I could see someone with other physical traits having difficult executing the same idea.

Maybe the idea of 'updating' forms from a top down perspective is ultimately fruitless. It should be from bottom up ideally, yet this cannot happen if we participate in sport where technical standards must be by definition firm and standard.
 

Master Dan

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Terry,

All you ever needed to know is with in all the Poomse's or Kata's but Organizations will never give that to you because they themselves do not know or try to distribute that in an organized way because it is a huge job for them to just try to get everyone globally on the same page to the basic method. Applications can very as much as 12 or more variations of a single technique not to mention before dealing with differences in anatomy or size of oponent in real life situations.

The knowledge you seek comes from studying under a master or GM who has that knowledge not an organization unless it is a one man organization so to speak who speacializes in applications. Even simple one steps can be broken down expanded with unlimited posibilities 10, 20, 30 years down the road. To those who want to say there are no applications beyond the party line? fine live long and prosper but the bottom line is what works and has to work for each individual based on thier abilities both mental physical, mental and spiritual.

You have to have an open mind not dug into a commitment to a preconcieved allegiance to the robotics of only one way to perform or what to think about when doing PoomSe. Critical narrow performance of PoomSe for competition or rank advancement is just one of many multiple sides of each PoomSe Kata or anthing else you want to call it.

You can read and study alot and learn the theory but to become comfortable with applying it you need to train one on one with someone who knows at least a few times a year and then incorporate that with in your own training methods and especially experiment with many types of people and sizes.

You wil find that your students will enjoy doing PoomSe and learning it when they have developed enough to earn the right to learn more. I am not going to name names or organizations on this forum you can get this help with. You will improve your own personal self defense and that of your students dramatically faster than trying to convince a global organization to change thier direction. If you want to PM me I will give you several sources and individuals you can go direct to for help.
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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IMO, the obvious issue with taegeuk 1-8 is the focus on front kicks and virtually no other kicks. There are 2 roundhouses and no back kicks for instance. If any kick should be the "core" kick, it's the roundhouse (to varying heights, from the knees to the head) and not the front kick.
 

Master Dan

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IMO, the obvious issue with taegeuk 1-8 is the focus on front kicks and virtually no other kicks. There are 2 roundhouses and no back kicks for instance. If any kick should be the "core" kick, it's the roundhouse (to varying heights, from the knees to the head) and not the front kick.

Really? and what part of the foot are you using?Instep?? and what specific nerve points are you activiating in an ascending or descending angle? are you activating any nerve points with hands prior to striking with foot or activating with foot then finishing with one or two specfic hand activations or manipulations?

Please expand more for us?
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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Really? and what part of the foot are you using?Instep?? and what specific nerve points are you activiating in an ascending or descending angle? are you activating any nerve points with hands prior to striking with foot or activating with foot then finishing with one or two specfic hand activations or manipulations?

Please expand more for us?
I don't understand your questions. I am saying that in almost all martial arts, the roundhouse (in its many variations) is the bread and butter kick. I don't know why the taegeuks 1-8 have virtually all kicks being the front kick.
 

dancingalone

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I don't understand your questions. I am saying that in almost all martial arts, the roundhouse (in its many variations) is the bread and butter kick. I don't know why the taegeuks 1-8 have virtually all kicks being the front kick.

Maybe the people designing those forms liked Okinawan karate. Mae geri or the front kick is the staple in most styles of Okinawan karate.
 

Earl Weiss

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... Now if TKD is alway revolving into a better art both spiritually and physically should poomsae not be updated to what is a growing need for real world application?

I am looking forward to some real talk about why the KKW, ITF or any other org out there does not really look into developing an higher need for real life poomsae for the common person training.

If you are looking into a "Why" I certainly do not spek for any organization.

I have to say that my first issue with regard to the above is that I do not agree with the statement. I do not accept the premise that patterns are solely meant to be for practice of Self Defense.

I believe there are at least 2 other important purposes from a Chang Hon perspective:
1. To have beauty in movements.
2. To have movements that physicaly an mentaly challenge the student to achieve a certain stnadard.
 

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Thanks for clarifying, Terry.



I look first at the traits needed to be effective in a fight once it starts (I'm setting aside situational awareness and lead-up, since we're looking at technique). I see:
  • no mind/action with aware mind--the mental discipline to stay alert, act, and not freeze. In top performance under pressure the mind is clear but doesn't interfere.
  • whole body technique--using stance and good body mechanics together to maximize power at the point of impact
  • balance--being able to move and respond in multiple directions and deliver maximum power without leaving yourself overcommitted afterward.
  • fluidity--part mental and part physical practice, it's being loose and not tight, which of course is faster and less tiring.
I see these traits in skilled martial artists. My forms practice is important but is only part of becoming skilled. Good topic to get me thinking about how I practice my forms too. I agree with Earl's point about progressive physical and mental challenge for students, but don't think that goes against your idea of searching for bridges between memorized sequences and the real world. What about developing situational step-defense responses--for example sitting in a car (chair), in a bathroom stall/phonebooth (enclosed space), or at a urinal/counter (hard surface in front)? Maybe by playing some with these as chunks of technique, you might assemble them into a 'confined spaces' form. I don't see creative teaching as conflicting with the forms we do for rank or organization.

Carl
 
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Master Dan

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If you are looking into a "Why" I certainly do not spek for any organization.

I have to say that my first issue with regard to the above is that I do not agree with the statement. I do not accept the premise that patterns are solely meant to be for practice of Self Defense.

I believe there are at least 2 other important purposes from a Chang Hon perspective:
1. To have beauty in movements.
2. To have movements that physicaly an mentaly challenge the student to achieve a certain stnadard.

I also believe that thier are many reasons and levels for doing PoomSe and Kata all of which include yours above but I narrowed the comments to SD because Terry's original forum post was only dealing with what he considered real life applications and why the organizations were not promoting that and if they could be changed?
 

puunui

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My opinion why they do not seem to exist in a mainstream way is because the various TKD leadership in any of the TKD orgs have not found the idea of retroactively fitting good applications to the forms to be an important thing to do. They seem content to let this be something individual instructors add on if they are interested in doing so.

I believe so too. :)

There is a hammer fist strike in one of the forms I practice. Most people interpret it as a hammerfist to a sensitive spot like the temple or the collarbone, which is a fine application.

There is a hammerfist strike in the Taeguek poomsae, but I was taught it was a strike to the top of the head. Coincidentally, Hapkido also has a similar downward knife hand strike, which is also to the top of the head, which I believe was taken from a downward sword strike, to the top of the head. I do agree that perhaps that application would be harder for someone much shorter than their attacker, and would have to be modified.
 

puunui

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I have to say that my first issue with regard to the above is that I do not agree with the statement. I do not accept the premise that patterns are solely meant to be for practice of Self Defense.


When I attended the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in Korea, ten years ago, we were taught that when doing a middle block with the rear hand, your hip is at a forty five degree angle aligned with the front leg and your upper torso was also at a forty five degree angle aligned with the front hand, essentially forming an "X" with the lower hips and upper body. I asked the instructor why and he said that there were health benefits from twisting your body in such a fashion, similar to the health benefits to similar poses in yoga. You wouldn't get those types of health benefits if your kept your hips and shoulders square like many practitioners do. There were some participants who strongly objected to such X twisting, stating that the correct way was with square hips and shoulders, for maximum power and leverage in a self defense situation.

I guess I would be more interested in doing the poomsae easter egg hunt, looking for applications in the form movements, if I didn't have a background in Hapkido. My instructor, who was on the committee that created the Kukkiwon poomsae, would show me applications which were straight out of Hapkido. He also studied Hapkido, with the same teacher that I have.

In Hapkido, we study the self defense applications directly, which leaves me free to find alternative uses and benefits to poomsae outside of the self defense aspects. I don't feel there is any benefit in reverse engineering applications into the poomsae, like some people do.

Having said that, I am not against such practices. I just choose not to.
 

puunui

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You have to have an open mind not dug into a commitment to a preconcieved allegiance to the robotics of only one way to perform or what to think about when doing PoomSe.


Or what to think about when doing poomsae, no doubt you are making a vague, somewhat negative reference to the poomsae explanations that I posted a while ago. But at the time, you were very interested in those explanations, and wanted them all. Did you find them all, or are you still missing a couple?
 

Master Dan

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Or what to think about when doing poomsae, no doubt you are making a vague, somewhat negative reference to the poomsae explanations that I posted a while ago. But at the time, you were very interested in those explanations, and wanted them all. Did you find them all, or are you still missing a couple?

As usual you think the sun revolves around you my statement had nothing to do with you at all and in fact its more a qoute made by specific grand masters I study with and help teach seminars. You did however add to what I and others posted before you that it is not the focus of the KKW to train or teach applications beyond basic in the forms and that would come from training one on one with a master or GM that chooses to share that information with you. Our GM was accomplished in Hapkido and Judo and I am sure a % of that is included in all our basic TKD. However since he was a prominent student of Mas Oyama he had a certain disdain for Hapkido he would mention that fighting was like fishing here you want my had or wrist go ahead it like bait chuming the fish. GM did after many years acknowledge the benifits of PP and higher level applications but he would call it fee sytle and did not want it shown to anyone with out having very good basics first.

As usual you see my name and look for a way to personally atack me always off topic. You always acuse everyone of being uneducated or not walking in the same worthy lite as you. Well study the forum rules again.

You think you got something you can hurt me with?. My 2nd daughter died after 8 years of tourture and $4million in medical, My six year old daughters mother was just killed this Thanksgiving drowning after falling through the ice and they searched for 10 days to find the body with video cameras and fishing hooks, its a miricle we many times don't find the bodies here or its months even years later. A few weeks ago I just found out my oldest son 27 may only have 6 months to live due to a rare lung disease and will likely die with out a lung trasplant from St. Vincents.

I have spent the last 16 years of my life teaching poor and abused youth for free and before that another 15 years in areas none of you could survive in giving almost everything I own to it and your wonderful Korean born higher rank forced me into launching a program to 15 villages before it was funded promicing financial help and it never came I lost everything I owned and my business never to recover paying all the bills until there was no more left.

TKD is about survival about giving to others serving something you seem to be devoid of beyond your arogant pontificating. You have made many enemies of those who truly know me what I have done for many years they consider you evil.

There were times I just wanted to lay down and not get up, and when you ranted at me soon after Barb was killed I wanted to get plane ticket and find you at a national event face to face but I have a 6 year old child to raise and many others whos lives depend on me so shut up or not don't bother with your atacking PM's Grow up its about time or continue to post about your nice clothes your nice car and how you beat up drunks in bars and atack defensless taxi cab drivers.
 

ralphmcpherson

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A couple of words of advice master dan, "ignore him". I used to get sucked into his games and eventually chose to ignore him. The only way you will get along with him is to accept that he knows everything, and anybody who thinks differently either A) doesnt know what they are talking about, or B) is only a low ranking tkd student and hasnt come around to 'his way of thinking'. I have shown his posts to my seniors (many higher ranked than him) and they all had a good laugh. Fortunately, he gave me the old "to me you no longer exist" line, so he no longer responds to my posts.
 

Master Dan

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A couple of words of advice master dan, "ignore him". I used to get sucked into his games and eventually chose to ignore him. The only way you will get along with him is to accept that he knows everything, and anybody who thinks differently either A) doesnt know what they are talking about, or B) is only a low ranking tkd student and hasnt come around to 'his way of thinking'. I have shown his posts to my seniors (many higher ranked than him) and they all had a good laugh. Fortunately, he gave me the old "to me you no longer exist" line, so he no longer responds to my posts.

In ordinary times his comments to me or about me would mean nothing but the stress of the launching of joint Korea Alaska Village programs nearly killed me I was going to quit TKD for life over all the betrayal. His jumping in making snap shot judgments on me was more than I could bear at one time. However I decided on advice of others I had nothing to be ashamed of and I chose to take what was good from it and learn to restart again.

How much I would love to smell grass or see trees or live in a nice home and have a nice car but I gave all that up almost two decades ago and I cannot leave. The children of this region are neglected abused raped and killed. The lack basic life skills to even take advantage of basic education. They had to build a $5 million dollar house to house 26 of them for 2 week periods for eduction but what they basically learn is how to cook a meal do thier laundry. Every student I teach is one more who survives to have a good life. Just two weeks ago I looked out my window at 3 am from screaming figured it was drunks again and 5 month old baby in a diaper was crawling outside in the snow screaming and no adult to pick it up. I called the cop shop get your *** her now and I showed him the door it belonged to. 9 hours later at noon I hear the mother screaming laying in her door and the baby crawling right out into the snow again. I took pictures I called the cop shop bitched them out for not doing thier job turned them into child services and the troopers long story short they got investigated and the mother got charged with child endangerment but it would have been swept under the rug or anther kid dead. I have one niece in one village her 19 year old boyfriend killed her 7 month old by shaking it and after he was sentenced she hung her self becasue she thought they would be comming for her she was 17. The same village a 23 year old boy drove his snow machine in the same hole Barb was killed in two week later and they have never found his body. My most senior student's brother in law was killed three weeks later never found walking back from the village to his cabin we are pretty sure eaten by Polar Bears. In the last two years I have had so many friends and neighbors die its bizzare even husband wife two weeks apart and most all with out warning even one froze out side his house 6 weeks ago because he got dropped off by the cab and did not have his key. My students found him when they came in the morning to pick him up for his birthday. I have outlived so many people but outliving your children and two wives seems to be to much for words. We surpased all communities in the US in suicides last February 2010. If I work hard and keep my head down we hope to build a two story non profit training center with living area and rentals above to cover overhead still teaching for free but giving the youth of this region something they can take pride to train in. My six year old is a real joy and she is in her 3rd year of school and very smart we do everything together every day but now I have to make my will and make arrangements to insure her education and that she will not be forced to live in a village if I die.

thank you for your kind words

The philosophy of Jidokwan that we were taught was that its not about wining but survival not giving up getting back up never stop learning.
 

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