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Darrencowan

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I have respect for officers as long as they respect me and don't infringe on my righs. My brother is a US Marshall and I worry that he will come home in a body bag. That being said, I don't like the way our country has gone wtih law enforcement. There are cases of police brutality all the time. You can subscribe to a You-Tube channel called "Policing the Police," where people take vids of cops infringing on their rights.

I grew up in a small town in Michigan. We called our office "Barney Fife." He really was like Barney from the Andy show. He didn't like it, but he didn't get you out of your car and beat you. The modern prototype of a cop is this jack-booted, juiced up thug. They look less like the blues and blacks of TV and more like Star Wars' storm troopers. I understand our country has gotten out of hand with violence--murders, serial murders, mass murders, terrorism, but I don't think this is cause to do away with our Constitution. Our freedoms are what makes us a great nation. Period. Stop and frisk and other tactics are eroding our Bill of Rights. The Patriot Act has hurt many of these freedoms.

You can say this is a response to our times, but I say it goes deeper than that. This build up of the police state has been going on for a long time. I am a journalist, so I try to stay objective and report the facts and what I observe. I truly believe we have descended into a police state.

For more info on this topic: watch the following videos and read the articles:






Police State 2000 Alex Jones FULL LENGTH

Police State 2 the takeover

Enemy of the State: Camp FEMA 2 - FULL MOVIE

Alex Jones - Martial Law
 

Tony Dismukes

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There are real systemic issues in law enforcement which need to be addressed. There are legitimate journalists covering these issues. Alex Jones, on the other hand, is a nutbag conspiracy theorist. Getting caught up in his alternative reality antics will not help make any positive changes in society or do anything good for your state of mind.

BTW - crime rates (both violent crimes and property crimes) in the U.S. have been steadily decreasing every year for almost three decades now. Anyone who tries to tell you that things are getting more dangerous is either misinformed or trying to sell you something.
 

Juany118

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There are real systemic issues in law enforcement which need to be addressed. There are legitimate journalists covering these issues. Alex Jones, on the other hand, is a nutbag conspiracy theorist. Getting caught up in his alternative reality antics will not help make any positive changes in society or do anything good for your state of mind.

BTW - crime rates (both violent crimes and property crimes) in the U.S. have been steadily decreasing every year for almost three decades now. Anyone who tries to tell you that things are getting more dangerous is either misinformed or trying to sell you something.

Correct on both points. Infowars, and Alex Jones, is the height of Conspiracy Theory fueled hysteria. I would only add that on the later, 1 some specific cities have seen a stark increase and that is getting a lot of "inches" in the news. 2. We still lead the developed world in every violent crime stat, some by a "country mile". As such I have issues when people say "well <insert European Country here> they don't have as many Officer involved shootings."

In closing, step one to fixing the issues in the US regarding policing. Pay for the damn training. As an example Germany. 130 weeks is the length of the Police Academy. The US averages 19 weeks. In Germany they are required to have weekly unarmed combatives training in the academy and monthly refreshers. In the US you are lucky to a what amounts to, on average a couple 8 hour class days worth of less lethal training period, not just unarmed combatives, over the 19-20 odd weeks and at best a "refresher" every few years that is short enough to be done "on duty time." I honestly can't remember the last time I have PPCT training (which is a joke in and of itself) at work or baton and NEVER have I been "refreshed" in takedowns in 19 years. The US basically seems to want "Bloomingdale's" levels of Protection on a "Walmart", sometimes "5 below" budget.

Until we have comparable levels of training for the rank and file (full time SWAT teams in major cities like LA and NYC are a different story) THEN we can actually start seeing a more balanced picture for comparison.
 

ballen0351

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Correct on both points. Infowars, and Alex Jones, is the height of Conspiracy Theory fueled hysteria. I would only add that on the later, 1 some specific cities have seen a stark increase and that is getting a lot of "inches" in the news. 2. We still lead the developed world in every violent crime stat, some by a "country mile". As such I have issues when people say "well <insert European Country here> they don't have as many Officer involved shootings."

In closing, step one to fixing the issues in the US regarding policing. Pay for the damn training. As an example Germany. 130 weeks is the length of the Police Academy. The US averages 19 weeks. In Germany they are required to have weekly unarmed combatives training in the academy and monthly refreshers. In the US you are lucky to a what amounts to, on average a couple 8 hour class days worth of less lethal training period, not just unarmed combatives, over the 19-20 odd weeks and at best a "refresher" every few years that is short enough to be done "on duty time." I honestly can't remember the last time I have PPCT training (which is a joke in and of itself) at work or baton and NEVER have I been "refreshed" in takedowns in 19 years. The US basically seems to want "Bloomingdale's" levels of Protection on a "Walmart", sometimes "5 below" budget.

Until we have comparable levels of training for the rank and file (full time SWAT teams in major cities like LA and NYC are a different story) THEN we can actually start seeing a more balanced picture for comparison.
Were do not need a 2 and a half year long police academy that's silly. 6 months is plenty long enough. There is no reason for massive changes in how policing is done in the US. The stats don't Justify it. There is always room for improvement but let's not go overboard.
 

Juany118

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Were do not need a 2 and a half year long police academy that's silly. 6 months is plenty long enough. There is no reason for massive changes in how policing is done in the US. The stats don't Justify it. There is always room for improvement but let's not go overboard.

You would be right, If police were still expected to do what was expected 25+ years ago. However now police are expected today, as Chief Brown of Dallas said...

We are. Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve. Not enough mental health funding, let the cops handle it. Here in Dallas we got a loose dog problem; lets have the cops chase loose dogs. Schools fail, lets give it to the cops. Thats too much to ask. Policing was never meant to solve all those problems...

More and more issues that at times require specialized training (Mental health most importantly) are being thrown at LE. Society isn't going to change their expectations. So the training needs to change.

Additionally we have these two realities. 1 deescalation training, if done right, takes time. Academy classes need to adapt. 2. Half the problem, imo is that the vast majority of officers in a violent situation are trained as follows. Officer presence>verbal commands> OC > taser > baton> lethal force, the baton being wielded like a glorified one handed baseball bat.

So if you can't effectively fight, and your tools fail you are left with your side arm or an *** kicking. Once you get to that "I was in fear for my life during the *** kicking stage" lethal force could well be justified. How do you fix that? Actual quality combatives training which again increases the training time.

Now I am not saying that you need over 2 years in the Academy, but we need a heck of a lot more training. Also studies have shown that while having some college doesn't impact arrests etc it has a Big impact on UoF in that Officers without college are statistically far more likely to use force. So if one accepts the demands of the public (which will never change) and crafts the Police academy to meet these demands, resulting in a better educated officer, it is better all around for everyone imo. At least that's what 19 on the job has taught me.
 

Juany118

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Training here goes on for two years while you are a probationer. Police officer job profile | Prospects.ac.uk
Yep. The training a US police officer gets would basically be unacceptable in Europe. In the US there is a mythos that says "Police work is a craft and you can only really learn in on the job.". Well there are big holes in that. I should learn unarmed combatives by fighting real resisting suspects? I should learn mental health crisis intervention by being thrown head first into a "altered mental status" call? I should learn deescalation after 3-6 credit hours at the academy teaching me theory and then feel it out on the street?

Did I have to do most of the above? Yep. But we have a saying in many circles here..."you aren't a real cop until you have been on the job for 5 years." In a job with the dynamics of LE that, imo, is simply not acceptable. Yes you will need the experience but what other career, especially one with influence over life and death finds that acceptable?
 

Buka

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While you're grinding, everyone of the police the OP is referring to....they moonlight. As bouncers. :)
 

ballen0351

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You would be right, If police were still expected to do what was expected 25+ years ago. However now police are expected today, as Chief Brown of Dallas said...
Society hasn't changed all that much in 25 years the problems then are the same as now.


More and more issues that at times require specialized training (Mental health most importantly) are being thrown at LE. Society isn't going to change their expectations. So the training needs to change.
Which is why we have specialized units made up of experienced officers. A fresh rook right out of the academy still hasn't figured out how to get their gun belt off during an emergency code brown and they definitely don't have the tools needed to deescalate a violent person in the middle of a mental break. Or the knowledge to deal with long term social issues like a experienced and trained community resource officer. So save the special training for the officers that got the Police work part down and can use the special training more effectively. Let the rooks work on figuring out how to dive and play with the sires at the same time with out crashing.
Additionally we have these two realities. 1 deescalation training, if done right, takes time. Academy classes need to adapt.
NO amount of academy "training" will prepare you for the real thing.
Its just a fact it takes Years of real world experience to figure it out. Which goes bck to my origional point save the special traing for the experienced officers. I know I can talk to people better now the I could 5, 10, and 15 years ago.
2. Half the problem, imo is that the vast majority of officers in a violent situation are trained as follows. Officer presence>verbal commands> OC > taser > baton> lethal force, the baton being wielded like a glorified one handed baseball bat.
Well most departments don't want you going hands on. They want to reduce the chance of injuries to the officer. Its keeps workers comp claims down, keeps light duty time down, keeps injury retirement settlements down.

So if you can't effectively fight, and your tools fail you are left with your side arm or an *** kicking. Once you get to that "I was in fear for my life during the *** kicking stage" lethal force could well be justified. How do you fix that? Actual quality combatives training which again increases the training time.
And you are able to judge the quality of every law enforcement training program in the US?
And good luck finding people to agree on what a quality combatives program is. Post that simple question on a martial arts forum and you will get 100 different opinions.
Now I am not saying that you need over 2 years in the Academy, but we need a heck of a lot more training. Also studies have shown that while having some college doesn't impact arrests etc it has a Big impact on UoF in that Officers without college are statistically far more likely to use force. So if one accepts the demands of the public (which will never change) and crafts the Police academy to meet these demands, resulting in a better educated officer, it is better all around for everyone imo. At least that's what 19 on the job has taught me.
Id like to read these studies post a link. I've trained several freshly graduated college grads.......Ill take a Vet any day.
 

Juany118

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Society hasn't changed all that much in 25 years the problems then are the same as now.

The problem is the same but the Expectations have changed. I come from a family of Police Officers and Teachers. In both fields society expects them to do address things that were not "their" problem 2 decades ago. This is actually much discussed at conferences, in academia etc.

Which is why we have specialized units made up of experienced officers. A fresh rook right out of the academy still hasn't figured out how to get their gun belt off during an emergency code brown and they definitely don't have the tools needed to deescalate a violent person in the middle of a mental break. Or the knowledge to deal with long term social issues like a experienced and trained community resource officer. So save the special training for the officers that got the Police work part down and can use the special training more effectively. Let the rooks work on figuring out how to dive and play ]
with the sires at the same time with out crashing.

And there are better ways to handle that than a "shake and bake" academy straight to FT. However other countries actually do extensive training in the academy. I will continue on this below. Additionally, at least in the town where I work, many mental health crisis don't actually provide the opportunity for the "specially trained officer" to show up. That's a nice way to cut down on overall training expenses but they call it "Mental Health Crisis" for a reason. I am a Certified Crisis Intervention Specialist also so I can say that with some authority.

NO amount of academy "training" will prepare you for the real thing.

Who said it would be all classroom training and no practical? Many of the Countries in Europe ahve you in the academy for X week's rotated out to an FTO for Y weeks, back to the academy for Z weeks. Wash rinse rotate, until you hit your final duty Station.

Its just a fact it takes Years of real world experience to figure it out.
You always need the experience BUT there are ways to get the experience AND better education, not just "damn rook will figure it out."

Well most departments don't want you going hands on. They want to reduce the chance of injuries to the officer. Its keeps workers comp claims down, keeps light duty time down, keeps injury retirement settlements down.

Well thats a "cop out" (pun not intended). Especially since the brass would probably rather have you use your hands if OC and Taser failed than wacking at someone brutishly with your baton, or worse having to resort to your gun.


And you are able to judge the quality of every law enforcement training program in the US?

There are better and worse ones but the fact remains a 6 month at most program is inadequate. Just about every Professional who actually has trained in LE Education in the US agrees with this, that there is a better way BUT that better way costs more money so we are where we are.


Id like to read these studies post a link. I've trained several freshly graduated college grads.......Ill take a Vet any day.

U.S. Police: Education levels and the use of force (references one of the studies noted below, check out the difference in UoF this article notes.)
How Education Impacts Police Performance
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

PS. Vet and College here, the two aren't mutual exclusive but it seems to be, based on studies and anecdotal experience. When the crap hits the fan, yeah you probably want the Vet. If you want to have a better chance of it not hitting the fan, have the college boy.
 
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Darrencowan

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I know of no LEO's that would stand with a push to martial law. Every LEO has family as well that would be affected!

I hope it doesn't come to that. You know the Marines, I believe it was, did a drill where they asked the soldiers if they would go after their loved ones in case of martial law. I can't remember the results, but I just remember a Marine talking about it on the radio. Good ole Ollie North started the crack epideminc in this country so we could arm the Contras and he also put together a plan for martial law. Check out this sound clip. Very famous.

 

ballen0351

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The problem is the same but the Expectations have changed. I come from a family of Police Officers and Teachers. In both fields society expects them to do address things that were not "their" problem 2 decades ago. This is actually much discussed at conferences, in academia etc.
Nope same old problems always has been always will be. Same old calls for service. We just have more options to use as solutions now.


And there are better ways to handle that than a "shake and bake" academy straight to FT. However other countries actually do extensive training in the academy. I will continue on this below. Additionally, at least in the town where I work, many mental health crisis don't actually provide the opportunity for the "specially trained officer" to show up. That's a nice way to cut down on overall training expenses but they call it "Mental Health Crisis" for a reason. I am a Certified Crisis Intervention Specialist also so I can say that with some authority.
There will always been issues that pop up but if you do your job better the incidents will be less.....I'm also a CIT member...


Who said it would be all classroom training and no practical? Many of the Countries in Europe ahve you in the academy for X week's rotated out to an FTO for Y weeks, back to the academy for Z weeks. Wash rinse rotate, until you hit your final duty Station.
And many academies in the US do the same thing
You always need the experience BUT there are ways to get the experience AND better education, not just "damn rook will figure it out."
If hats how you train then no wonder you feel the way you do. Thats not how we do things


Well thats a "cop out" (pun not intended). Especially since the brass would probably rather have you use your hands if OC and Taser failed than wacking at someone brutishly with your baton, or worse having to resort to your gun.
Not a cop out its just the way it is Admin has to focus on more than just the road cop.
by they way tahts twice you talked about how poorly your people use batons perhaps you need some remedial?



There are better and worse ones but the fact remains a 6 month at most program is inadequate. Just about every Professional who actually has trained in LE Education in the US agrees with this, that there is a better way BUT that better way costs more money so we are where we are.
Well this trainer disagrees. Everything can be improved but no need to reinvent the wheel. The stats dont justify it


thanks Ill look at it
When the crap hits the fan, yeah you probably want the Vet. If you want to have a better chance of it not hitting the fan, have the college boy.
well we will just have to agree to disagree
 
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Darrencowan

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I have heard of no LEO looking for Martial Law, however Rosie ODonnell was. She proposed martial law in order to prevent Donald Trump from being sworn in as president.

I just hope Trump doesn't install martial law. He's talking about doing it in Chicago.
 
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Darrencowan

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Correct on both points. Infowars, and Alex Jones, is the height of Conspiracy Theory fueled hysteria. I would only add that on the later, 1 some specific cities have seen a stark increase and that is getting a lot of "inches" in the news. 2. We still lead the developed world in every violent crime stat, some by a "country mile". As such I have issues when people say "well <insert European Country here> they don't have as many Officer involved shootings."

In closing, step one to fixing the issues in the US regarding policing. Pay for the damn training. As an example Germany. 130 weeks is the length of the Police Academy. The US averages 19 weeks. In Germany they are required to have weekly unarmed combatives training in the academy and monthly refreshers. In the US you are lucky to a what amounts to, on average a couple 8 hour class days worth of less lethal training period, not just unarmed combatives, over the 19-20 odd weeks and at best a "refresher" every few years that is short enough to be done "on duty time." I honestly can't remember the last time I have PPCT training (which is a joke in and of itself) at work or baton and NEVER have I been "refreshed" in takedowns in 19 years. The US basically seems to want "Bloomingdale's" levels of Protection on a "Walmart", sometimes "5 below" budget.

Until we have comparable levels of training for the rank and file (full time SWAT teams in major cities like LA and NYC are a different story) THEN we can actually start seeing a more balanced picture for comparison.

Well said, you basically mirror my brother's attitude. He feels like all of this is due to stupidity. The Gracy family put out a great video about training cops. They show an altercation that lasts for 20 minutes. If the cop were properly trained, it would have been done in seconds.
 
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