Point of Origin?

[Clinton Shaffer]

Hello Folks! I'm trying to learn the cliff notes of Shaolin Gung Fu and how it came into being. All I know (or have read) is that Bodhidharma traveled from India to China and arrived at the Shaolin Temple where he began teaching meditation to the monks. Because they kept falling asleep during meditation, he developed the first gung fu form ever (I think it was 12 or 13 movements?) for the purpose of those monks becoming strong enough to endure the long and demanding meditation sessions. My knowledge ends there. As I read about all the different forms of Traditional Chinese Gung Fu, I hear of styles based in: the five animals, the five elements, I've read that each posture actually corresponds to the health of a given organ in the body and how that corresponds to... I don't know what. Who would watch two animals fight and deduce from this that therein lies the best fighting system. I don't believe it is that linear and believe there is so much more to it than that. So, where does it all come from? What is the point (or points) or origin? What is the relation between the five animals and the five elements where gung fu is concerned? If any one of us would attempt to devise an effective fighting system based on the way human being seems to fight, one would think a style similar to western boxing might come out. So, the fact that traditional Chinese martial arts are so different from that cause me to deduce that some intricate knowledge (something very different from how we think in the west) serves as its base. I've tried researching this topic but the key details always elude me. Could someone please enlighten me on this subject?

 

[Flying Crane]

People have been fighting each other for as long as our species has existed. Every culture in every era has had its fighting methods, especially when real survival of the individual or the village or the clan depended on it. Perhaps some cultures in some eras had developed systems to a higher degree of sophistication than others, perhaps some have simply been forgotten and we no longer know with accuracy what they had and how it might have compared to that of others.

I think a lot of these stories are myth. Bodidharma and Shaolin, for example. I think that many systems developed among the many villages and regions in China. They were the methods practiced by those people, for their protection, passed down from elders to juniors. Some of these systems became famous, were brought into the West where we had a chance to see them, and others did not and remained obscure. Sometimes fantastic stories were developed around them. People found inspiration in the development of their methods, some of which came from nature. I think it is unlikely that there was a straight line from watching an animal or watching two animals fight, to then making a complete system based on that. But there could be a genuine source of inspiration buried in there, a nugget of historical truth that was inflated into a fantastic story. Mileage may vary.

The system that I train is an animal system and has a creation story. I’ve Researched the concepts in non-martial sources and it is my opinion that our creation story could be true, the elements are real, but I think we have no way of knowing with certainty that it unfolded in that way. That is good enough for me. The story is meant to give an identity to those who practice the system. It is a mythology that may have truth in it, but does not need to be historically accurate.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think anyone who claims to "know" these things is fooling themselves. The origin stories for most martial arts are composed of equal parts fact, fiction, mythology and nonsense.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think anyone who claims to "know" these things is fooling themselves. The origin stories for most martial arts are composed of equal parts fact, fiction, mythology and nonsense.

Well the fact is that's just fictional mythological nonsense

 

[hoshin1600]

Disclaimer: this is my opinion based on my own views and research. They are controversial but I have no idea why. it seems to " trigger" some people.

Bodhidharma seems to be a convenient myth. It links martial arts to a higher purpose than just fighting. However there could be a kernel of truth to it. Many believe that Chinese martial arts was first developed on the silk road between India and China. It is thought Travelers often found themselves pray to criminals or vagrants. Now before I go much further I want to point out I am talking about the origin of Chinese martial arts as we know them today. Meaning a possible direct link. Fighting is not exclusive to India, China or any Asian country. Fighting is universal.
Ok.... now one prevalent hypothesis is that Alexander the Great and his troops pushed across the continent. Part of their training and a source of entertainment was Pankration. An ancient form of MMA. Alexander's troops pushed all the way to India and stopped there. It is known that many Greeks and slaves settled down along the way in many countries. It is most probable that a large portion of troops settled in India, married local and passed on the practice of Pankration as it was as much entertainment as training. The Indian culture had an existing practice of a proto-yoga which would have involved poses and movement for health benefits as well as a religious component. Thus Pankration and yoga merged and a form based martial art was born. This would have became useful on the silk road and the Chinese would have picked it up as the two cultures merged and intermingled. The Chinese would have began to adopt the concepts and integrated the forms into their own culture. Humans are biologically designed to mimic. The concepts from other animals is a natural tendency for humans. For thousands of years hominids worshiped animals long before we developed Gods. Animal mimicry is just part of human evolution. As the Chinese developed their own styles they would want to evoke the power of a tiger or the grace of a crane. But also we are biologically designed to fear and react to three predators snakes, big cats and apex birds like eagles. Other primates have specific calls for each. Troops need to know whether to run up the tree or down out of the tree. Having a respect for these apex predators we have a natural tendency to mimic them to subconsciously evoke the power and fear they generate. Thus you see vikings and many other cultures that wear horns and animal skins as a uniform of ancient war.
The development of today's arts took approximately 2300 years. Not exactly an overnight success.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Who would watch two animals fight and deduce from this that therein lies the best fighting system.

Animals fight better than humans, because humans have something they don't have.

All of the Chinese systems regarding animals are designed to show a human what is possible in terms of ability, they came about because ancient philosophers who also happened to train in combat, mused about their various abilities. Two tigers fighting is a sight worth deep contemplation, is the basic idea.

Later things like the Wu Xing Five Elements were used to organize all of this into buckets based on similar energetics of motion. The Water shaped fist smashes one direction, the Earth Shaped Fist another.

The best human fighting system looks nothing like Western boxing. It looks like a human who can fight like a mystical man-animal made of earth, water, fire, metal, and wood.

Basically, Roy Nelson. That beard alone is proof Dragons do exist.

 

[hoshin1600]

The best human fighting system looks nothing like Western boxing. It looks like a human who can fight like a mystical man-animal made of earth, water, fire, metal, and wood.

Actually the best human fighting system looks like the military. Humans most developed weapon is the brain. Multiple person team fighting with methodical, organised, well trained, synchronized tactics with a single aim.

 

[letsplaygames]

History major here with a focus in Chinese history

Bodidharma was real. 5-6 century AD In fact there is a lot of documentation on him because he traveled a lot in China (almost like an ambassador/religious statesmen from India and even was at the Emperors court. Historians know He did visit a Buddhist temple and gave some form of Qi gong that morphed in a Quan fa. Buddist monks at that time already practiced a cultivated mental discipline...(still do... only a small % practice a Quan fa) That metal discipline probably was the catalyst for the Qi gong morphing into a Quan fa. Bodidharma did not teach a martial art.

Animal styles or styles that mimic animals was/are a Nan Quan (i.e a southern fist) There are some credible Chinese and Western Historians that think that there never was a Southern Shaolin temple(s). The ruins that many point to as the southern temples bare no proof they were ever Shaolin (actually two locations have been cited as southern temples) That doesn't prove of disprove... could have been a sanctuary for the monks that fled from the North... History around this is still clouded.

Chang Quan or Long Fist... or more specifically Northern Long fist: a generic term to denote many styles in the north, i.e Pao Chui, Cha Quan, Taizu Chan Quan, Fanzi Quan, Hong Quan, Hua Quan

Have their origins in the Tang and Song dynasty's (supposedly) from 400-1100 AD etc

Chinese Historians surmise these branch or styles probably came out of older styles, going all the way back to the Warring States era. Much that is thought original to Shaolin stems from these styles... Shaolin Monks put their spin on them.

These Chang Quan were/are native to northern China, Korea and Inner Mongolia. Sanshou/Sanda is most popular in the north and has many practioner of Chang Quan that compete.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Actually the best human fighting system looks like the military. Humans most developed weapon is the brain. Multiple person team fighting with methodical, organised, well trained, synchronized tactics with a single aim.

Obviously, a group of man animals with Five Element training working as a pack, is superior to a single manimal.

 

[Oily Dragon]

History major here with a focus in Chinese history

Bodidharma was real. 5-6 century AD In fact there is a lot of documentation on him because he traveled a lot in China (almost like an ambassador/religious statesmen from India and even was at the Emperors court. Historians know He did visit a Buddhist temple and gave some form of Qi gong that morphed in a Quan fa. Buddist monks at that time already practiced a cultivated mental discipline...(still do... only a small % practice a Quan fa) That metal discipline probably was the catalyst for the Qi gong morphing into a Quan fa. Bodidharma did not teach a martial art.

Animal styles or styles that mimic animals was/are a Nan Quan (i.e a southern fist) There are some credible Chinese and Western Historians that think that there never was a Southern Shaolin temple(s). The ruins that many point to as the southern temples bare no proof they were ever Shaolin (actually two locations have been cited as southern temples) That doesn't prove of disprove... could have been a sanctuary for the monks that fled from the North... History around this is still clouded.

Chang Quan or Long Fist... or more specifically Northern Long fist: a generic term to denote many styles in the north, i.e Pao Chui, Cha Quan, Taizu Chan Quan, Fanzi Quan, Hong Quan, Hua Quan

Have their origins in the Tang and Song dynasty's (supposedly) from 400-1100 AD etc

Chinese Historians surmise these branch or styles probably came out of older styles, going all the way back to the Warring States era. Much that is thought original to Shaolin stems from these styles... Shaolin Monks put their spin on them.

These Chang Quan were/are native to northern China, Korea and Inner Mongolia. Sanshou/Sanda is most popular in the north and has many practioner of Chang Quan that compete.

There were many southern Shaolin temples. The idea that there was one unique one in the south to find as well as north is ridiculous. Just trace the lineage of Chan Buddhism.

AS far as Damo, he was retroactively acknowledged by the Shaolin as their patriarch. He replaced Vajrapani, just as the Shaolin staff replaced the Trishula as their signature weapon.

Animal styles are not unique to Nan Quan at all. There are Praying Mantis lineages from the north, and there are Tibetan lineages that people don't like to talk about at parties that travelled all the way down to humble Canton and the surrounding areas, to become legendary in physical combat.

For the Shaolin Long Fist empty handed arts, those aren't 1000 years old. Christopher Columbus is older than the Shaolin Long Fist.

Those many Northern styles you mentioned, like the Wiki says it better, funny you both had the same order! 6/6

Subtypes of Long Fist​

• Pào Chuí (Chinese: 炮捶; literally "cannon punch") pre-Tang Dynasty;[5]
• Chāquán (Chinese: 查拳; Cha Yuanyi style) Tang Dynasty (618–907);[1][6]
• Tàizǔ Chángquán (Chinese: 太祖長拳; "Emperor Taizu (Great Ancestor) long fist") Song Dynasty (960–1279);[6]
• Fānziquán (Chinese: 翻子拳; "tumbling fist") Song Dynasty (960–1279);[1]
• Hóngquán (Chinese: 紅拳; "red fist") Song Dynasty (960–1279); and[1][5][6]
• Huáquán (Chinese: 華拳; "China fist") Tang Dynasty (618–907).[1][5][6]

 

[Oily Dragon]

• Hóngquán (Chinese: 紅拳; "red fist") Song Dynasty (960–1279); and[1][5][6]

There's a really funny story behind this one.

Big Red Flood Fist and Little Red Flood Fist walk into a bar.

Big Red asks Little Red what she'll be drinking.

Little Red says "who you callin' she?".

 

[Instructor]

My martial art is modern compared to the history you are all discussing and people still argue about aspects of our history.

 

[letsplaygames]

There were many southern Shaolin temples. The idea that there was one unique one in the south to find as well as north is ridiculous. Just trace the lineage of Chan Buddhism.

AS far as Damo, he was retroactively acknowledged by the Shaolin as their patriarch. He replaced Vajrapani, just as the Shaolin staff replaced the Trishula as their signature weapon.

Animal styles are not unique to Nan Quan at all. There are Praying Mantis lineages from the north, and there are Tibetan lineages that people don't like to talk about at parties that travelled all the way down to humble Canton and the surrounding areas, to become legendary in physical combat.

For the Shaolin Long Fist empty handed arts, those aren't 1000 years old. Christopher Columbus is older than the Shaolin Long Fist.

Those many Northern styles you mentioned, like the Wiki says it better, funny you both had the same order! 6/6

Subtypes of Long Fist​

• Pào Chuí (Chinese: 炮捶; literally "cannon punch") pre-Tang Dynasty;[5]
• Chāquán (Chinese: 查拳; Cha Yuanyi style) Tang Dynasty (618–907);[1][6]
• Tàizǔ Chángquán (Chinese: 太祖長拳; "Emperor Taizu (Great Ancestor) long fist") Song Dynasty (960–1279);[6]
• Fānziquán (Chinese: 翻子拳; "tumbling fist") Song Dynasty (960–1279);[1]
• Hóngquán (Chinese: 紅拳; "red fist") Song Dynasty (960–1279); and[1][5][6]
• Huáquán (Chinese: 華拳; "China fist") Tang Dynasty (618–907).[1][5][6]

Thanks…You just repeated everything I wrote… and yes I took the list from wiki “FOR CORRECT SPELLING “ purposes only.

would you like me to actually research the many style under the umbrella of Chang Quan and give a detailed account? Would that satisfy you?

i did not imply animal styles are only in the south… that said you point to one animal style in the north, I will point to 3 in the south.

Finally… I don’t exist on this thread to puff up my ego… with gotcha’s and zingers…

 

[clfsean]

Y'all are funny ...

 

[Xue Sheng]

And what about jǐao dǐ" (角抵) that later likely morphed Shuaijiao (摔跤)

​

 

[clfsean]

And what about jǐao dǐ" (角抵) that later likely morphed Shuaijiao (摔跤)

​

Don't forget Bokh that came in from the North ... Pankration from the West ... Kalaripiyattah from the South ... oh, and Cain v Abel showing empty hand self defense against a blunt object didn't pan out too well either ... hehehehehehe

... which by the way most of this was poking fun at this whole notion.

 

[Steve]

Disclaimer: this is my opinion based on my own views and research. They are controversial but I have no idea why. it seems to " trigger" some people.

Bodhidharma seems to be a convenient myth. It links martial arts to a higher purpose than just fighting. However there could be a kernel of truth to it. Many believe that Chinese martial arts was first developed on the silk road between India and China. It is thought Travelers often found themselves pray to criminals or vagrants. Now before I go much further I want to point out I am talking about the origin of Chinese martial arts as we know them today. Meaning a possible direct link. Fighting is not exclusive to India, China or any Asian country. Fighting is universal.
Ok.... now one prevalent hypothesis is that Alexander the Great and his troops pushed across the continent. Part of their training and a source of entertainment was Pankration. An ancient form of MMA. Alexander's troops pushed all the way to India and stopped there. It is known that many Greeks and slaves settled down along the way in many countries. It is most probable that a large portion of troops settled in India, married local and passed on the practice of Pankration as it was as much entertainment as training. The Indian culture had an existing practice of a proto-yoga which would have involved poses and movement for health benefits as well as a religious component. Thus Pankration and yoga merged and a form based martial art was born. This would have became useful on the silk road and the Chinese would have picked it up as the two cultures merged and intermingled. The Chinese would have began to adopt the concepts and integrated the forms into their own culture. Humans are biologically designed to mimic. The concepts from other animals is a natural tendency for humans. For thousands of years hominids worshiped animals long before we developed Gods. Animal mimicry is just part of human evolution. As the Chinese developed their own styles they would want to evoke the power of a tiger or the grace of a crane. But also we are biologically designed to fear and react to three predators snakes, big cats and apex birds like eagles. Other primates have specific calls for each. Troops need to know whether to run up the tree or down out of the tree. Having a respect for these apex predators we have a natural tendency to mimic them to subconsciously evoke the power and fear they generate. Thus you see vikings and many other cultures that wear horns and animal skins as a uniform of ancient war.
The development of today's arts took approximately 2300 years. Not exactly an overnight success.

Hold on. Just a point of clarification, There is no evidence that Vikings out horns on kn their helmets. Furs? Well that and wool… it’s cold as heck up there.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Hold on. Just a point of clarification, There is no evidence that Vikings out horns on kn their helmets. Furs? Well that and wool… it’s cold as heck up there.

Indeed. In point of fact, there has never been a single viking era helm found with horns. Not one. Further, in the art of that period, vikings are not shown with horns on their helms.
The only period works that show horns are those depicting various dieties.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Hold on. Just a point of clarification, There is no evidence that Vikings out horns on kn their helmets. Furs? Well that and wool… it’s cold as heck up there.

Thanks. Was debating if I wanted to point that out-in their mythology animals do have a place, but there's nothing suggesting that they dressed up specifically in the style of animals, or that if they did that it was due to animals martial prowess.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Don't forget Bokh that came in from the North ... Pankration from the West ... Kalaripiyattah from the South ... oh, and Cain v Abel showing empty hand self defense against a blunt object didn't pan out too well either ... hehehehehehe

... which by the way most of this was poking fun at this whole notion.

We all know the only reason Cain was able to kill Abel was because Abel did not know the triple axel, spinning flibberty jibber, roundhouse jumping back-flip kick