Pocket Stick usefullness and tactics

[shesulsa]

Actually, it's not controlled by prescription either, they just need a record on people that buy it and limit amount of sales

Hmmm ... that must be different by state, because I'm pretty sure here you have to have a prescription for it now.

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

I'm back from training, and here is my experience. I wanted to test the claim that pocketsticks help with jointlocks, because I train BJJ and was very skeptical that they could have any positive effect. I used a minimag flashlight because the general consensus is that it makes a good substitute. I have never trained in the use of pocketsticks, but I have a good deal of grappling experience and knowledge of joint locks (both in practice and the theory behind the technique).

Holding the pocketstick as it was shown in every picture I found, I attempted to roll with it. I tried to go for moves that seemed like they would most benefit from its use; trapping arms, wrists, ect. In every case the stick was a hinderance. It either hurt my ability to grab, required much extra effort to use, or left me wide open for blows, sweeps or submissions as I attempted to manipulate it. The one thing I found it helpful for was breaking down a person posturing up in my guard, because it increased pressure on the back of the head slightly.

There was actually someone there who had trained a little in the use of pocketsticks, and he showed me a few finger locks. The gave absolutley no control and I was able to escape each one by rolling my wrist. They all required two handed control to set up, and left the guy doing them open to blows. He agreed with me that the locks were not effective.

All this has firmly convinced me that pocketsticks have absolutely no value in grappling. Any benefit they give is far outweighed by the amount of control they take away. Hit people with them, but don't make the mistake of beliveing they help jointlocks.

EDIT: My mistake, Sudafed is still legal, but requires a prescription (at least in NY). I'm gonna claim my point still stands, because the gov is trying to regulate it out of existence. I guess you can make meth or ephedra out of it. Nothing like punishing the many for the sins of the few...

 

[bignick]

Did I call that one or what?

 

[bignick]

-Great for her. Do you think this is the typical result one should expect?

Who knows? :idunno:

But it's one more piece of real world empirical evidence than you've presented.

 

[bignick]

-I would love to hear all the details you're willing to type out.

What's to type out. Occasionally some of us will bring a yawara, kubotan, etc and we'll go at it. Sometimes in a randori type format and other times we'll do multiple attacker type rush attacks, other times it'll be a bit more static and we'll work set techniques. Pretty much standard training, regardless, I do concur, that it doens't really look anything like some of the videos posted here.

 

[MJS]

-I have played with them is how I describe my experiance with them. What that means is I've poked and prodded, and been poked and prodded with little to no resistance. I have struck heavy bags and dummy men with them. I have not sparred live with them. I believe my experiance is pretty much the same as those that are pro-pocket stick. From what I can tell the majority of the people in favor of pocket sticks don't spar with them. I would love to hear people's details of live sparring with them if they honestly have that experiance. I don't currently have that training option.

Thanks for the reply. So, if I'm reading this correctly, your experience is based fully on trial and error and no official training from someone with experience using this tool? If thats the case, how can you accurately have an understanding of it?

In fact, the best argument for pocket sticks I've heard to date is Crafty Dog of the Dog Brothers stating in a similar thread to this that he believes in their effectiveness. It's a pretty safe bet that he knows what he's talking about when it comes to sticks. I stand by my position though for the reasons stated. I would also like to know if he would personally carry one.

We're in agreement here.

Now based on your last paragraph we're pretty close in opinion. One of my major arguments has been that a pocket stick isn't a fight stopper. That all by itself negates its use by a civilian imo. This is based on my civilian SD strategy. If I am warrented to escalate force to defend myself beyond basic empty hands when escape is not an option (cornered and/or defending loved ones), then my opinion is that I should skip all less than lethal weapons and go straight to lethal force. The pocket stick does not provide lethal force and would be a waste of valuable time imo.

Well, IMO, this can be said of every strike or kick.

That is not to say that I would ever be against the use of a heavy pen, or magick marker if you were taking the hypothetical *** beating. Fall and find your hand on a pocket stick shaped implement. By all means strike with it. That is not the same as carrying a 6" piece of plastic with your keys on it at all times that you have in your "mental personal force escalation plan" as a legitimate step along the way to deadly force. I am arguing against the latter.

If the chips were down that bad, I'd grab whatever I could to use.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I'm back from training, and here is my experience. I wanted to test the claim that pocketsticks help with jointlocks, because I train BJJ and was very skeptical that they could have any positive effect. I used a minimag flashlight because the general consensus is that it makes a good substitute. I have never trained in the use of pocketsticks, but I have a good deal of grappling experience and knowledge of joint locks (both in practice and the theory behind the technique).

Holding the pocketstick as it was shown in every picture I found, I attempted to roll with it. I tried to go for moves that seemed like they would most benefit from its use; trapping arms, wrists, ect. In every case the stick was a hinderance. It either hurt my ability to grab, required much extra effort to use, or left me wide open for blows, sweeps or submissions as I attempted to manipulate it. The one thing I found it helpful for was breaking down a person posturing up in my guard, because it increased pressure on the back of the head slightly.

There was actually someone there who had trained a little in the use of pocketsticks, and he showed me a few finger locks. The gave absolutley no control and I was able to escape each one by rolling my wrist. They all required two handed control to set up, and left the guy doing them open to blows. He agreed with me that the locks were not effective.

All this has firmly convinced me that pocketsticks have absolutely no value in grappling. Any benefit they give is far outweighed by the amount of control they take away. Hit people with them, but don't make the mistake of beliveing they help jointlocks.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, you have not worked with anyone who has much experience? If thats the case, I can see how you can have a biased opinion. In addition, you're basing the effectiveness of this on the experience that you have had with it, which appears to not be that good. Please keep in mind, as I said earlier, just because you may not have luck with it, does not mean that someone else will not find value in it. You and I could learn the same technique, I could have problems and you could pick it up with ease, and vice versa.

Mike

 

[MJS]

-Great for her. Do you think this is the typical result one should expect?

Nope, but it seems like it worked for her, so I'd have to say that its not as useless of a tool as some people think it is!

Mike

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Hmmm ... that must be different by state, because I'm pretty sure here you have to have a prescription for it now.

IIRC, states with big Meth problems are starting to require them.

On topic:

I think BigNick's, MJS's and Don Roley's points are, well, on point. Those with formal, specific training in the use of SD sticks and lights for joint locks, etc. have found them very effective. Those without the training (or in my case, training that didn't stick, no pun intended), are less able to use them as grappling aids and more likely to pooh pooh their use.

The difference is; I wrote that I'm not a fan of them for grappling use because I am terrible at joint locks and, thus, cannot use them effectively at my current level of skill. Some others have said they don't like them - but are unwilling to admit the possibility that this is because they don't know how to use them!

 

[Flatlander]

If it came to grappling, and you found it of no value, abandon the pocketstick. Otherwise, why not use it to supplement your striking?

 

[shesulsa]

If it came to grappling, and you found it of no value, abandon the pocketstick. Otherwise, why not use it to supplement your striking?

Good advice!

 

[Jonathan Randall]

If it came to grappling, and you found it of no value, abandon the pocketstick. Otherwise, why not use it to supplement your striking?

If you're speaking of those who tried it (without specific training) and did not like it, I agree. If you are speaking of me (mine was the post above yours), I think that they could be of value to me IF I knew how to grapple with them - or even grapple without them, LOL. I'm all thumbs when it comes to joint locks...

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

So, if I'm reading this correctly, you have not worked with anyone who has much experience? If thats the case, I can see how you can have a biased opinion. In addition, you're basing the effectiveness of this on the experience that you have had with it, which appears to not be that good. Please keep in mind, as I said earlier, just because you may not have luck with it, does not mean that someone else will not find value in it. You and I could learn the same technique, I could have problems and you could pick it up with ease, and vice versa.

I've worked with many people who have extensive grappling exprience. No one could find any grappling value to a pocketstick; it gives no extra leverage or control and hurts your ability to grip. It could be useful to try and hit someone with, but I was trying to test the claim that it improved the ability to do submissions by increasing the very things it hinders. There is no grip done using a pocketstick that can't be done better without it, and it is too short to give leverage like a club or stick can.

I think BigNick's, MJS's and Don Roley's points are, well, on point. Those with formal, specific training in the use of SD sticks and lights for joint locks, etc. have found them very effective. Those without the training (or in my case, training that didn't stick, no pun intended), are less able to use them as grappling aids and more likely to pooh pooh their use.

The difference is; I wrote that I'm not a fan of them for grappling use because I am terrible at joint locks and, thus, cannot use them effectively at my current level of skill. Some others have said they don't like them - but are unwilling to admit the possibility that this is because they don't know how to use them!

I'll admit I am biased against using them for grappling despite not having any formal training in their use. I do have a lot of formal grappling training, enough so that I can realize the uselessness of pocketsticks for this purpose. All the techniques I have been shown (the videos posted and the finger locks shown to me) have been terrible, and my own experience showed a complete lack of function.

Keep in mind I'm not arguing against hitting someone with a pocketstick. If you hammerfisted someone hard with one you would probably **** them up pretty nicely. But the claim that they help with jointlocks is completly without merit. If someone has something to show me how I'm wrong, I gladly listen and eat crow.

 

[Don Roley]

I've worked with many people who have extensive grappling exprience. No one could find any grappling value to a pocketstick;

Thats your mistake. It is like going to a boxer and asking them about adding kicking to what you do. They will tell you it is worthless due to what they do and their lack of experience with the subject matter. You need to go to someone who knows a decent style of kopojutsu or the like and ask them if it can help. Note that only about one in ten people that I know who say they know the art meet my standards as a decent practicioner.

There are specific techniques to use the stick. It is not like you lay out with taking a standard move and just holding the stick in your hand when you do it. The movements are based on the same moves in my art, but probably not what you do and there are things you need to do to make it Koppo specific.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Thats your mistake. It is like going to a boxer and asking them about adding kicking to what you do. They will tell you it is worthless due to what they do and their lack of experience with the subject matter. You need to go to someone who knows a decent style of kopojutsu or the like and ask them if it can help. Note that only about one in ten people that I know who say they know the art meet my standards as a decent practicioner.

There are specific techniques to use the stick. It is not like you lay out with taking a standard move and just holding the stick in your hand when you do it. The movements are based on the same moves in my art, but probably not what you do and there are things you need to do to make it Koppo specific.

Don, that says it all!

If you haven't been trained in the use of a tool, how can you say it is worthless?

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

Simple. Both my experience trying to use it and the actual techniques shown to me by those who have trained with it have led me to conclude it has no use in grappling or joint locks. The claim is being made that it increases leverage and control. It absolutely cannot do these things.

If anyone can show me proof otherwise, I'll be happy to admit I am wrong. Unless that happens I am going to go with what experience has shown me and call bull **** on this one.

 

[Don Roley]

Simple. Both my experience trying to use it and the actual techniques shown to me by those who have trained with it have led me to conclude it has no use in grappling or joint locks. The claim is being made that it increases leverage and control. It absolutely cannot do these things.

If anyone can show me proof otherwise, I'll be happy to admit I am wrong. Unless that happens I am going to go with what experience has shown me and call bull s*** on this one.

I don't think you have trained with people who know what they are doing. I would urge you to keep an open mind instead of being so eager to reject something that has been proven as an effective weapon by many schools of martial arts in Japan. Just because you know no way to make something work does not mean that nobody knows how to make something work. Open your mind and seek new experiences rather than make such broad statements of rejection.

 

[shesulsa]

First of all, let me point out to you that disguising/circumventing profanity is against the rules on MartialTalk. You can find the posting rules at the link that says "Rules" on the blue menu bar towards the top of every page.

Second of all, you are welcome to share your polite opinions on MartialTalk as well, but we do not "call ********" - that's for a different discussion site.

Thirdly, this thread was not dedicated to grappling (exclusively) with a pocket stick and just because a handful of people could not show you how to do it properly doesn't mean it is not of value nor useful, nor that you were even shown correctly.

There is a saying about assumptions ....

 

[Hand Sword]

I haven't studied them in depth at all, but, I'm sure that some of the people mentioned here, have, and can make it work for them. I base this on my experience with a security guard who used it to capture my Thumb in a lock, some fingers too. He did it enough times in his work where he aquired some skill with one, so I wouldn't say there is NO use to them at all. Everything has some use or function.

 

[BlackSheep]

Simple. Both my experience trying to use it and the actual techniques shown to me by those who have trained with it have led me to conclude it has no use in grappling or joint locks. The claim is being made that it increases leverage and control. It absolutely cannot do these things.

If anyone can show me proof otherwise, I'll be happy to admit I am wrong. Unless that happens I am going to go with what experience has shown me and call bull **** on this one.

YES YES YES!!!

And throwing 4 palm strikes in 1.5 sec that thing will fly off and have just as good a chance as hitting you in the eye as it has of hitting the other person.

I’m sure that it works real well as a Kata Krappy thing.