Pocket Stick usefullness and tactics

RoninPimp

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shesulsa said:
Which has nothing to do with this thread or your opinions on short stick fighting. Stay on topic with us here. Your experience is extremely limited and your arguments dubious - what say you now on this topic?
-That key toy is a pocket stick. The web site makes claims about them. That is topical to this thread imo.
 

shesulsa

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RoninPimp said:
-I have not wasted much time with lame drills with a pocket stick. People claim to spar hard with them, but never go into detail. My hunch is that those with "expert and lengthy training" are only doing the bad drills like I have done, and like posted in the bad videos. I have yet to see any claims of Dog Brothers esque sparring with pocket sticks.

And you likely won't because videos are just videos. People who have received viable, effective training are, despite your implied assertions, not obliged to prove anything to you whatsover in this medium or otherwise.

Your condemnation of things which you admittedly do not know much of proves the worthlessness of your arguments.
 

shesulsa

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RoninPimp said:
-Truth in combat is my only agenda.

Yeah? Join the armed forces and take every weapon imaginable INTO combat - after expert training in all these things of course - and THEN we'll consider your arguments worth reading.
 

RoninPimp

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shesulsa said:
And you likely won't because videos are just videos. People who have received viable, effective training are, despite your implied assertions, not obliged to prove anything to you whatsover in this medium or otherwise.

Your condemnation of things which you admittedly do not know much of proves the worthlessness of your arguments.
"Viable and effective" are subjective. I would argue that my hands on with pockets sticks is more than a lot of people's that claim their effectiveness.
 

RoninPimp

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shesulsa said:
Yeah? Join the armed forces and take every weapon imaginable INTO combat - after expert training in all these things of course - and THEN we'll consider your arguments worth reading.
-FYI, I am a Marine Corps vet. I was speaking in civilian terms though.
 

shesulsa

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RoninPimp said:
"Viable and effective" are subjective.

So is being a Marine Corp vet. Did you go to combat? where and when? and how much expert training did you receive with the weapons you were afforded.

RoninPimp said:
I would argue that my hands on with pockets sticks is more than a lot of people's that claim their effectiveness.

OH? You've only admitted to one class of training and trying with a short stick. You think most people who claim effectiveness have not received more?
 

RoninPimp

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shesulsa said:
So is being a Marine Corp vet. Did you go to combat? where and when? and how much expert training did you receive with the weapons you were afforded.



OH? You've only admitted to one class of training and trying with a short stick. You think most people who claim effectiveness have not received more?
-Being a Marine Corps vet is not subjective. I have not seen combat. All my training with weapons was expert training as is the nature of Marine Corps training.

I said nothing about "one class of training". I have played with them with a parner on more than one occasion. Poking and prodding like the proponents of them demonstrate. I was underwhelmed.
 

shesulsa

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RoninPimp said:
-Being a Marine Corps vet is not subjective. I have not seen combat. All my training with weapons was expert training as is the nature of Marine Corps training.
So then, if the only 'real' way to measure truth in combat is to be in combat itself, you have, admittedly, no leg to stand on.

RoninPimp said:
I said nothing about "one class of training". I have played with them with a parner on more than one occasion. Poking and prodding like the proponents of them demonstrate. I was underwhelmed.
Ah yes - the true test of training - poking and prodding and underwhelmhood. I am reminded of self-training with swords and it's lack of viability and how vehemently those individuals are encouraged to train with people who have extensive, long-term training with weapons. One does not simply hack and swing a sword, nor does one simply poke and prod with a stick. Your lack of training shows and whether you like it or not, your opinion of the viability of training with such a weapon is moot because you do not have the proper training. Hence, your agenda here is crystal clear.

And clearly I confused your argument with that of another here who did state he spent one class attempting the use of the short stick with grappling. It's hard, sometimes, to tell you all apart.
 

RoninPimp

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shesulsa said:
So then, if the only 'real' way to measure truth in combat is to be in combat itself, you have, admittedly, no leg to stand on.


Ah yes - the true test of training - poking and prodding and underwhelmhood. I am reminded of self-training with swords and it's lack of viability and how vehemently those individuals are encouraged to train with people who have extensive, long-term training with weapons. One does not simply hack and swing a sword, nor does one simply poke and prod with a stick. Your lack of training shows and whether you like it or not, your opinion of the viability of training with such a weapon is moot because you do not have the proper training. Hence, your agenda here is crystal clear.

And clearly I confused your argument with that of another here who did state he spent one class attempting the use of the short stick with grappling. It's hard, sometimes, to tell you all apart.
-NOBODY on this thread has civilian combat experiance with a pocket stick that they are willing to share. Their training with one is severly lacking in details too. The rest of your post attempts to insult, yet makes no sense. Your agenda as "queen bee" in "these here parts" is clear. I will not play that game. Mod status does not mean MA expertise.

I have stated my opinion and why I believe what I do. I will actually roll with a pocket stick when the training oportunity presents itself. I have strong evidence and logical critical thinking to support my view. I am done with this thread. Flame away people. You can have the last irrelavent to the topic words.
 

Don Roley

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RoninPimp said:
-I think that's a bad strategy imo. So a stick helps your striking, but if you're taking time to draw it when you could be striking empty hands or drawing a lethal weapon you're wasting time imo.

First of all, we already talked about how people are less likely to use lethal weapons than a stick on another. And the problems of trying to get to a weapon when things hit the fan. And you have ignored the idea of having the stick already in your hand as in the case of a flashlight. You seem to have built this up to make your point, but your underlying scenario is false.

-A cop using a pocket stick doesn't mean it carries over to civilian SD. The cop's job and legal obligations are way different that a civilian's

Except that we were talking about how the pocket stick was used by folks like the Japanese police for centuries and they probably would not have if it had not been effective. Japanese police in the Edo period probably are not the same as modern day police, but the fact that they used the weapon to good effect does not change.

"Viable and effective" are subjective. I would argue that my hands on with pockets sticks is more than a lot of people's that claim their effectiveness.

If you include me in that, you are wrong. I have been training with them for years under a qualified teacher. You fooled around with some buddies.

-I have not wasted much time with lame drills with a pocket stick. People claim to spar hard with them, but never go into detail. My hunch is that those with "expert and lengthy training" are only doing the bad drills like I have done, and like posted in the bad videos. I have yet to see any claims of Dog Brothers esque sparring with pocket sticks.

You seem to mistake sparring with reality. I do not spar with pocket sticks. But I have done things like trying to get at my teacher by various means full out and I can tell you that he can use them very well. It was a testiment to his skill that he could do this without breaking some of my bones, but it was a very eye- opening experience. If you have nothave had the same experience, then you really have not had the full extent of training I have had and yet you seem willing to state with full confidence that things do not work.

As I said before, give up your ego, admit that just because you do not know how to do something does not mean that nobody knows how to do it and keep an open mind. You own, limited, experience with teachers probably less qualified than even I should not be the basis on which you loudly reject this broad of a subject that has been tested as effective over centuries of use.
 

Carol

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So, on the subject of risk...

Is if fair to say that a risk of using pocket sticks is the reaction time? That drawing a stick is be slower than using one's fists?

If I were to grasp at some straws...would it also be fair to say that such a risk can be overcome with proper training...as proper training in any fighting skill addresses both use and application?
 

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At the risk of turning this thread into a flame war, I have to respond.
Don Roley said:
You fooled around with some buddies.
I fooled around with some buddies, not Ronin. I was vastly underwhelmed by the pocketsticks potential for grappling. A lot of people criticized my methodology, and they were reasonably justified in doing so. However NONE of them gave me any evidence to show me why I was wrong.

shesula said:
And clearly I confused your argument with that of another here who did state he spent one class attempting the use of the short stick with grappling. It's hard, sometimes, to tell you all apart.

I can see that. We both made a reasonable argument about our beliefs, and both refuse to admit we are wrong without being shown evidence as to why. Keep in mind I only thing pocketsticks are useless for grappling. I actually think Ronin is being to hard on them. But at the same time no one has shown anything to change either one of our positions. It is clear what both of us want to see; some kind of proof that pocketsticks can be used in the manner people are claiming.
 

Don Roley

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MardiGras Bandit said:
At the risk of turning this thread into a flame war, I have to respond.

I fooled around with some buddies, not Ronin. I was vastly underwhelmed by the pocketsticks potential for grappling. A lot of people criticized my methodology, and they were reasonably justified in doing so. However NONE of them gave me any evidence to show me why I was wrong.

Well, we already pointed out that you are trying to add on a weapon to a non weapon oriented art. You are in fact trying to put F-1 wheels on a Honda Civic and wondering why you can't get the same performance.

And we mentioned that there are several hundred years of cases where people in Japan have used pocket stick type weapons to good effect. It is not just the police use of them, but also civilian in the cases of things like Kenka Kiseru and the like. It is hard to believe that anyone would use and develop a weapon that long if they found it ineffective in combat.

Faced with your lack of success contrasted with this long history, the most simple and logical explination is that you guys just do not have the background or know how to make things like this work. You may not be able to make it work, but there are centuries of people who have. So please try to keep an open mind and take responsibilities for your own failure to understand.
 

Don Roley

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Carol Kaur said:
So, on the subject of risk...

Is if fair to say that a risk of using pocket sticks is the reaction time? That drawing a stick is be slower than using one's fists?

If I were to grasp at some straws...would it also be fair to say that such a risk can be overcome with proper training...as proper training in any fighting skill addresses both use and application?

Or, if you have something like a flashlight, could you not have it in your hand at the mere thought that there might be violence? Something that you could have in your hand that would not be classified as brandishing a weapon?

I am not a big fan of the idea of trying to get to a weapon after the stuff has hit the fan. If you don't have it in hand, you ain't going to get to it until you have dealt with the matter. Awareness can help a lot in either getting the heck out of the area before trouble happens and/or getting your weapon out. But being able to have something in your hands at all times is one of the big advantages of a pocket stick that also doubles as something else.

I could post a few links to films of attacks that ended up with someone dead. There is one of a woman attacked in an elevator in Russia, another of a man knifed at an ATM, etc. Martialtalk rules prevent me. But if you spend an afternoon searching the web and viewing these chilling things, you can understand why I am so opposed to the idea of betting on the idea that you can asses a situation and make a move to deploy your lethal weapon if that is what is required.

So the whole idea that you can deal with non- lethal attacks unarmed without a transitional weapon like a pocket stick and go straight to a lethal weapon when that is required is just plain wrong in my opinion. Watch some of the videos you can find on the web and try to tell me I am wrong about betting your life on that logic.
 

Hand Sword

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I agree with this. If your finger isn't already on the trigger (figure of speech, could be mace, etc..) before hand don't go for it after the fact. You won't have a chance. the first thing to go, when it really goes down are your motor skills. Pulling your hands out of your pocket will be difficult.
 

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RoninPimp said:
-I've never disrespected anybody's right to believe anything.

I have to disagree with this. You've admitted that your training with these tools is limited at best, yet people have spoken about their effectiveness with them, yet you still continue to keep your eyes closed to what they're saying.

It appears to me that no matter what the subject is, if you have not had success, you automatically assume that its nothing worth looking at.

So a stick helps your striking, but if you're taking time to draw it when you could be striking empty hands or drawing a lethal weapon you're wasting time imo

Keep in mind that every situation is not always going to require lethal measures. As for taking the time to draw it, a kubotan, which can be carried with keys, would already be drawn, due to the fact that I have my keys out prior to reaching my car.

In closing I will say this: If you're going to contribute in a positive fashion, your thoughts, experience, etc. is more than welcome. However, if your only goal, mission, etc. is to cause constant disruption, perhaps this is not the place for you.

Mike
 

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RoninPimp said:
-The following is quoted on the site Drac linked..."If properly used and trained with this tool, even a child can escape from the attack of a full grown man." That is complete and utter BS. It is also irresponsible imo. The video is also a joke. This is one more piece of evidence showing why I believe pocket sticks are WAY over rated.

Have you ever attended any of the PROTEK key training seminars or classes?? Then you have no idea what your talking about...
 

Carol

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This thread had a rather intense discussion of pocket sticks, and whether they are useful or not.

There was something at work that made me think of bringing this back up. There is a part of the building where we are doing some remodeling. Across the floor were some old hunks of ceiling tile. I needed something at the other end of the room, but told the building manager I didn't want to walk across the tile given the shoes that I was wearing.

He said it was OK, because the tile was about to be discarded.

So, I walked across the ceiling tile and....claaaack claaack claaaaack...I was making a tremendous amount of racket doing it. My high heels (OK, they were more like 'medium-heels'" were puncturing the tile. Every step I made showed the print of my heel.

However, my 200+ pound building manager walked across it wearing his work shoes and he didn't have anywhere near the destructive effect on the tile.

It made me think about how a small spike can concentrate a lot of force.

So, I'm wondering about this as an experiment.

I'd like to take a large hunk of that old tile, or industrial styofoam, and mount it flush against a wall. Once in position, I'd hit one area with my bare knuckles, and another with a kubotan, then compare the indentations made from the impact.

I haven't done the experiment yet. However, I predict that the outcome would be...both made an impact, but the impact from the kubotan would be smaller, more focused, and much deeper.


What do you think?
 

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