Placement of Pak Sao

[lansao]

Hey all, curious to learn pak sao placement from different lineages. Some questions below:

• Where on your hand do you make contact?
• Where on your opponents arm (in fighting range) does your hand stop?
• What pak sao exercises do you practice?

~ Alan

 

[Juany118]

We try to pak as close to the wrist as possible but also train for the "oh crap" when the best you can pull off is the elbow. Regardless the idea is to pak at or near a joint.

When you are starting we do the standard basic drill, just repeated addressing of the straight punch. After that we have a lot. One is when we will train a basic entry movement to the blind side, say pak>gum (at the elbow)>punch, while zoning in on the side that the strike initially came from. This one is good because we have the idea of "face" your block point (which means body facing, you don't look at the block point because you know where it is by feel), for everything you use once on the "blind side" (it also applies to powerful round attacks, say a round kick or major haymaker. Because of this the drill doubles as footwork training because if your footwork was correct just beyond your block point (on your center line) should also be the center line of the opponent and so you are in a position to properly strike.

We also do one that I don't think is a "traditional" Wing Chun drill. Your training partner will randomly throw a straight punch, a round punch or knee strikes. It's on you to decide how to address the incoming strikes, the straights are usually addressed with a pak, I prefer bil or the Kali cover I mentioned elsewhere for the round personally and gum the knee (the drill is limited to using hands and arms to deflect.) This particular drill is eventually done at full speed so it is also a very good way to make sure you are watching elbows and knees and maintaining proper structure and ready position. If your man and wu are out of position you are going to have issues.

As you can see we try to incorporate various principles in a single drill. Not only does it help you see how say footwork and hand/arm techniques integrate and provides the muscle memory but it also forces divided attention for newer students which is vital for actual fighting.


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[Treznor]

We try to pak as close to the wrist as possible but also train for the "oh crap" when the best you can pull off is the elbow. Regardless the idea is to pak at or near a joint.

We try to avoid a pak too close to the wrist as it opens up too many options for an elbow to the face.

Personally, I find that mid to lower forearm (ie closer to the elbow) allows for more control..

As for where on the hand, palm / heel to allow for the pak to easily become a strike if the situation allows.

Mat

 

[Juany118]

We try to avoid a pak too close to the wrist as it opens up too many options for an elbow to the face.

Personally, I find that mid to lower forearm (ie closer to the elbow) allows for more control..

As for where on the hand, palm / heel to allow for the pak to easily become a strike if the situation allows.

Mat

Catching on the wrist is for the basic drill only. You don't necessarily want students, in the drill, following all the way through with their punch because that could end in tears (literally). The basic drill is simply to become accustomed to making contact in such a manner, learn the proper structure of the pak (along the center line), the shape of the hand (which is using the palm as you said) and that we are "catching" the incoming punch so you don't over commit etc. If the punch was a full on punch, with follow through, it would naturally end up further along the forearm.

 

[lansao]

Interesting how much diversity there is. To contribute, we start the "filleting motion" from the forearm and aim to land the pak sao behind the elbow. We try to make contact on the work area of of the palm below the pinky and ring finger (abductor digiti minimi). Anatomy Of The Hand Tendons

 

[Juany118]

Interesting how much diversity there is. To contribute, we start the "filleting motion" from the forearm and aim to land the pak sao behind the elbow. We try to make contact on the work area of of the palm below the pinky and ring finger (abductor digiti minimi). Anatomy Of The Hand Tendons

Note the below maybe because I am picturing it wrong.

Hmmm. I can see why you might use that part of the hand but behind the elbow gives me some concerns. Not based on WC specifically, every lineage has differences most of which are more or less semantics. It's more based on what I have experienced dealing with resisting and/or out right fightings suspects.

First if it is just there as a drill target (like the one at the wrist we use in TWC) I would be concerned as to where your pak is with a punch executed in true anger. To pak that far up the arm (as I picture it in my head) would have your arm fairly well extended. Now maybe your theory of the pak is different. With ours you are trying to "catch" a punch along the centerline, albeit at the forearm vs deflecting. For that to work against a punch with real power you need to be able to allow that force to travel into and through your structure and if your arm ends up to straight that doesn't happen because you lose support at the tendons and ligaments of the elbow and and so the elbow structure risks collapse.

With full follow through, if someone is punching along the centerline, even if the elbow structure remains intact I see the defender eating the punch, if the opponent has longer reach.

Second. If it works out as it should and the punch is stopped. The elbow is between your pak and you. Having that kind of flexibility for the opponent to trap or displace one of my limbs makes me twitchy.

One of the things we say in my school is "control the wrist, you control the hand, control the elbow and you control the man."

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[lansao]

Note the below maybe because I am picturing it wrong.

Hmmm. I can see why you might use that part of the hand but behind the elbow gives me some concerns. Not based on WC specifically, every lineage has differences most of which are more or less semantics. It's more based on what I have experienced dealing with resisting and/or out right fightings suspects.

First if it is just there as a drill target (like the one at the wrist we use in TWC) I would be concerned as to where your pak is with a punch executed in true anger. To pak that far up the arm (as I picture it in my head) would have your arm fairly well extended. Now maybe your theory of the pak is different. With ours you are trying to "catch" a punch along the centerline, albeit at the forearm vs deflecting. For that to work against a punch with real power you need to be able to allow that force to travel into and through your structure and if your arm ends up to straight that doesn't happen because you lose support at the tendons and ligaments of the elbow and and so the elbow structure risks collapse.

With full follow through, if someone is punching along the centerline, even if the elbow structure remains intact I see the defender eating the punch, if the opponent has longer reach.

Second. If it works out as it should and the punch is stopped. The elbow is between your pak and you. Having that kind of flexibility for the opponent to trap or displace one of my limbs makes me twitchy.

One of the things we say in my school is "control the wrist, you control the hand, control the elbow and you control the man."

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This works for us because of our sidestep footwork. Elbow stays bent between 90 to 135 degrees. Once behind (and to the side of) the elbow, we take control of the center. I think they are very different but it's great to hear thinking from other methodologies.

 

[Juany118]

This works for us because of our sidestep footwork. Elbow stays bent between 90 to 135 degrees. Once behind (and to the side of) the elbow, we take control of the center. I think they are very different but it's great to hear thinking from other methodologies.

Oh the footwork has it make sense then, we are all about moving to the blind side as well (that's TWC for ya). Wondering where that comes from in your Lineage bucause as I understand it there is more than a little TWC in yours.

I think it would still cause an issue for us though because we step in and to the side simultaneously and if the target was the other side of the elbow we would still each a punch rather soundly as you would in essence be walking into it.

 

[anerlich]

We try to avoid a pak too close to the wrist as it opens up too many options for an elbow to the face.

Personally, I find that mid to lower forearm (ie closer to the elbow) allows for more control..

As for where on the hand, palm / heel to allow for the pak to easily become a strike if the situation allows.

Mat

Pretty much like this. Wrists move faster and a greater distance than elbows and are more difficult to catch. Wing Chun guys can (and too often do) get fixated on millimetre anatomical accuracy which is basically impossible at any realistic speed.

If you're trying to pak a boxer's jab, be real careful with your angle and preferably put something in his face he has to deal with at the same time. Any half decent boxer will turn that left jab straight into a left hook and nail you if your pak is not on point.

 

[Juany118]

Pretty much like this. Wrists move faster and a greater distance than elbows and are more difficult to catch. Wing Chun guys can (and too often do) get fixated on millimetre anatomical accuracy which is basically impossible at any realistic speed.

If you're trying to pak a boxer's jab, be real careful with your angle and preferably put something in his face he has to deal with at the same time. Any half decent boxer will turn that left jab straight into a left hook and nail you if your pak is not on point.

I think part of the issue was "drill" there are so many drills that involve the pak sau that simply using the term "drill" creates issues. As an example, I was thinking the absolute basic pak sau drill as I clarified above, so when @lansao noted his target I was confused because I was picturing a drill with no footwork, which clearly contributed to a ? In my head.

 

[anerlich]

I think part of the issue was "drill" there are so many drills that involve the pak sau that simply using the term "drill" creates issues. As an example, I was thinking the absolute basic pak sau drill as I clarified above, so when @lansao noted his target I was confused because I was picturing a drill with no footwork, which clearly contributed to a ? In my head.

You replied to my post with this, but ... I said nothing about drills.

 

[Juany118]

You replied to my post with this, but ... I said nothing about drills.

Was referring to your post in the context I originally took from the OP. Which is why I corrected myself in a response to the same post you answered. I think after the last few threads a certain two people have jumped up strongly in, on the forms here I have begun to see "drill" in my head when I read stuff because that is their frame of reference and the context we get trapped responding to.

Maybe I need a week off to clear my head lol.

 

[anerlich]

Fair enough.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We try to avoid a pak too close to the wrist as it opens up too many options for an elbow to the ...

Agree! The safe blocking contact point is at your opponent's elbow joint. Any forearm contact can be bad idea. Your opponent may just throws a fake punch. When you try to use Pak to block his forearm, his other hand is ready to re-block your Pak and then drop his elbow into your chest.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In CMA, there is an important skill called "wash hands". It's used to deal with any "fore-arm blocking".

You have the back of your hands facing each other (almost touching). When you move

- right hand out, you pull the left hand back.
- left hand out, you pull the right hand back.

If you move your left hand out

- below your right hand, your right elbow is ready to strike upward.
- above your right hand, your right elbow is ready to strike downward or horizontally.

 

[Treznor]

Nice little vid on the WSL Pak Sao drill by David Peterson...

 

[ShortBridge]

My take:
"Where on your hand do you make contact?"

There is a spot on my palm that feels right to me. If it's too close to my fingertips, it doesn't have enough structure behind it, if it's too close to the heal of my palm, it doesn't have the right quality to be pak sao. When the question comes up in a class, I can point to it, but I always add that my phisoloogy is different than everyone else's and it may not be the same spot. You find your sweet spot by doing 10,000 pak saos or something like that.

"Where on your opponents arm (in fighting range) does your hand stop?"

When this question comes up, my answer is always that it's the wrong question. When I throw pak sao or really any of our hands, I'm not targeting a place on the other person's arm, I'm claiming space. What I think might be there informs which hand I chose to use (pak sao), but thinking of that contact being an objective is not what I teach. The object is to occupy that space. If his arm is there as I predicted, great, I'll take what I get and flow on from there, if not then there is a hole that I want to flow into. As soon as you start thinking that success looks like x" from the wrist or elbow, you've lost track of what you're really doing in Wing Chun which is bridging, taking center, flowing.

 

[Treznor]

As soon as you start thinking that success looks like x" from the wrist or elbow, you've lost track of what you're really doing in Wing Chun which is bridging, taking center, flowing.

While I SORT of agree with you on this point, in that we should be training the concept of how to deal with the attack rather than a specific response of 'opponent throws punch... I respond with pak sao to this part of his arm with that part of my hand' etc... the whole point of the drill is to ensure that when this technique IS used... it's used in the most effective way possible... which for my money is the mid-forearm to elbow area. The 'bridging, taking centre, flowing' aspect is (or at least should be) a natural progression from this.

 

[ShortBridge]

Well, I sort of appreciate that, I guess.

My position on this doesn't change, though. I don't teach my students to chase hands. There are a number of things that are more important in a pak sao than where you make contact and you have more control of all of them than you do targeting a spot on a non-compliant opponent's arms. I'm much more concerned in the drills that you guys are talking about in ensuring their pak sao has the proper energy, so that it isn't a palm strike.

In my experience teaching this system, when students rat-hole on things like this it takes them further from success with the system rather than closer to it. But, that's just my pedagogy. Treznor, if you're a wing chun sifu as well, then you're free to teach the way that you see fit or the way that your lineage advises.

 

[ShortBridge]

Treznor, I just watched the David Peterson video that you posted. It's very good, thank you for sharing it. I had not seen him or heard him speak before and I really enjoyed it. I continue to be impressed by what I see of the top WSL sifus, I hope to get a chance to train with someone close to them some day, because I'd love for some of what they have to rub off on me.

I continue to have trouble reconciling what I see to what WSL students post on this forum, though. I think what he was doing and saying did a much better job of making my point than yours.

To the point being debated in this thread:
At about 2:40 he says that he wants to make contact between the middle of the forearm and the elbow and that they worst thing is to contact close the the wrist. I get what he means and I don't disagree.

But, forward to after the 4 minute mark in his video and look where he is most consistently making contact...pretty close to the wrist. Is he doing it wrong? According to what he said earlier he is, if you want to rat hole on that point, but listen to what he is actually saying. It's not what he's training or the point that he's trying to convey, which is what I said before I watched his video and you SORT of agreed with, but felt the need to correct me on.

@:46 he says "too many people think it is a defensive drill...about blocking punches...It is about attacking and attacking with the right timing...aiming as if I'm hitting him in the chest."

Which was my point. If you watched his whole video and listened to what he said and watched what he did and took away from that that the drill is about targeting a spot on his arm, well, then I don't know what to say. Watch it again. Talk with your sifu about it. I get that WSL students are pre-disposed to argue with and discredit sifus from other lineages, but I don't think you're paying close enough attention to what your own source is telling you and demonstrating.

But again, you've got your way and I've got mine and it's a big beautiful world.