Updating the Wing Chun Library

lansao

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Do you practice Wing Chun? If so, what methods from other arts (e.g. BJJ, Systema, FMA, etc.) have you taken from/incorporated into your Wing Chun? How have you adapted those methods to conform to Wing Chun principles?

~ Alan
 

guy b.

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I also train bjj. I don't seek the takedown
 

anerlich

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I train Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and practice forms from other KF styles I've picked up along the way.

I train the styles separately. 2+2 sometimes equals five, but more often 2+2 = 3, and you know it.

I trained MMA for a few years, which, despite the name, I regard as a separate discipline on its own distinct from the styles that go into it.
 

Juany118

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I study Kali as well but really maybe only use a couple of things from that. I use an empty hand version of a roof block, sometimes called a cover, if someone is throwing rounds at my head and gunting, though some would argue gunting is in some WC Lineages. Beyond that I turn off WC and go Kali at different points, especially when it comes to weapon use and defense.

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lansao

lansao

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I study Kali as well but really maybe only use a couple of things from that. I use an empty hand version of a roof block, sometimes called a cover, if someone is throwing rounds at my head and gunting, though some would argue gunting is in some WC Lineages. Beyond that I turn off WC and go Kali at different points, especially when it comes to weapon use and defense.

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Thanks Juany, that's really helpful. Are you comfortable sharing some of the boundary circumstances where you turn off WC and go Kali?

~ Alan
 

Juany118

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Thanks Juany, that's really helpful. Are you comfortable sharing some of the boundary circumstances where you turn off WC and go Kali?

~ Alan

Well first when using weapons. Yes WC has the Butter Fly swords and Long Pole but Kali covers more weapons not only on the attack side but defense sides, not surprising as it starts students with weapons.

I also prefer the philosophy of the art overall for when it comes to weapons use, "defang the snake", in short take out the limbs. This makes more sense to me because it's already more dangerous dealing with an armed opponent and not having to go "all the way" through their guard mitigates the additional risk. It also has a firm concept of ranges which I find useful in terms of footwork when encountering weapons.

This isn't to say that WC doesn't deal with weapons fairly well, I just find Kali more refined in that respect.

Next is ground fighting. TWC has Chin Na and takedowns BUT it doesn't really have a ground game. I avoid going to the ground whenever possible but knowing ground fighting not only helps if you find yourself there it helps provide skills that help you avoid it.

What is gunting?

It's a term used for limb destruction. It comes from weapon fighting, say someone goes to punch you. Your parry is with the knife so you are cutting while you are parrying and then, you do a follow up strike to the limb. It's based on the "defang the snake" concept.

Something similar can be done empty hand, though obviously it's not as effective.. As an example the roof cover I noted places your elbow in a way that you could have the "bad guy" punching the "point" of the elbow. That HURTS. If you rake hard knuckles, after a strike to the back of the hand it can also not only cause pain but issues with the function of the hand. These are things that I would say can be redundant BUT if you are fighting a bigger/stronger opponent who has some skill I see it as useful.
 

Vajramusti

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Do you practice Wing Chun? If so, what methods from other arts (e.g. BJJ, Systema, FMA, etc.) have you taken from/incorporated into your Wing Chun? How have you adapted those methods to conform to Wing Chun principles?

~ Alan
Wing chun is my primary art. I find it to be a fairly complete art
 

Juany118

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Wing chun is my primary art. I find it to be a fairly complete art

I do as well. The main reason I started studying Kali was because...well my Wing Chun Sifu also teaches it and I fell in love with the weapons work as my first Martial Art was competitive fencing. The only thing I think Kali is superior in is the breadth and flexibility of the weapons usage, edged, thrusting, blunt (of varying lengths) and flexible weapons out of the gate. Since irl there is almost always something that can be used as a weapon this seemed to make perfect sense in terms of self defense. That said the principles of Wing Chun and incredible attention to detail needed make my Kali better.

Also the art having a warrior tradition, and the attitude of the art that comes with it (I can explain if need be), appeals to the fact I have spent most of my adult life wearing one of two uniforms.

All that said, as @geezer and others have discovered the two compliment each other rather well. I seem to have just "lucked out" and found a school where they are taught in parallel by a Guro/Sifu who has used both arts "in anger" as a LE Operator.
 
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lansao

lansao

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Wing chun is my primary art. I find it to be a fairly complete art
Thanks for sharing that Vajramusti, and I agree that it is a complete art. That said, I think of it as a complete and also always growing. Like a circle that is continuous/has no breaks in the line but expands as it comes in contact with movement that meets its criteria.

As a programmer, I see Wing Chun as both a very well designed programming language and a library of example code to train the intuition of the practitioner and cover a set of root applications. In that sense, Wing Chun is always evolving incorporating movements and rules from all arts where certain criteria are met by translating those movements into the "programming language of Wing Chun."

Do you think of it in a similar way? Differences in perspective on this between schools are also welcome.

I coincidentally had a great afternoon training with a TKD instructor earlier today and we shared some knowledge and had a great exchange. One example the TKD instructor shared with me was a push counter where upon contact he took a step back while maintaining contact with the hand of the pusher and placed the arm in a sort of arm bar. He shared that the technique was to help the opponent stand back up assuming they were drunk and leaning into you but I read into the root application of the arm bar. From there, I made small adjustments to the movement and incorporated principles from the art and will keep the arm bar aspect in mind for future reference.

~ Alan
 

anerlich

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As a programmer, I see Wing Chun as both a very well designed programming language and a library of example code to train the intuition of the practitioner and cover a set of root applications. In that sense, Wing Chun is always evolving incorporating movements and rules from all arts where certain criteria are met by translating those movements into the "programming language of Wing Chun."

I was a professional software developer for over 35 years, and continue to study online university courses on that and related subjects in retirement.

This metaphor does not fly for me. I worked in dozens of languages or variants thereof on hardware and OS platforms from assembly language and Fortran on IBM 7000 series mainframes and punched cards, through to Java on Android mobile devices.

Each language or OS worked well in its particular niche. None was suited to every situation. Certain platforms and languages were used for historical or cost reasons, or because they were trendy or a manager was more familiar with them, rather than performance or efficiency.

Wing Chun works well in a reasonable subset of possible defence situations. It has at best primitive ideas in response to other situations compared to other martial arts.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and computer technology are examples of things that undergo constant evolution and are continually being updated/upgraded. Wing Chun's pace of change works in geological time in comparison. Many practitioners are actively hostile to changing the art or hybridisation, some even claim all the good stuff was lost back in the 1850's.

IMO. My first martial arts instructor taught a mix of several kung fu styles, and as a result I feel the pursuit of a single all encompassing art is a fool's errand. Even if such an art did exist, I'd find there were too many other things out there of interest that I would want to investigate to pursue it alone.
 
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lansao

lansao

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I was a professional software developer for over 35 years, and continue to study online university courses on that and related subjects in retirement.

This metaphor does not fly for me. I worked in dozens of languages or variants thereof on hardware and OS platforms from assembly language and Fortran on IBM 7000 series mainframes and punched cards, through to Java on Android mobile devices.

Each language or OS worked well in its particular niche. None was suited to every situation. Certain platforms and languages were used for historical or cost reasons, or because they were trendy or a manager was more familiar with them, rather than performance or efficiency.

Wing Chun works well in a reasonable subset of possible defence situations. It has at best primitive ideas in response to other situations compared to other martial arts.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and computer technology are examples of things that undergo constant evolution and are continually being updated/upgraded. Wing Chun's pace of change works in geological time in comparison. Many practitioners are actively hostile to changing the art or hybridisation, some even claim all the good stuff was lost back in the 1850's.

IMO. My first martial arts instructor taught a mix of several kung fu styles, and as a result I feel the pursuit of a single all encompassing art is a fool's errand. Even if such an art did exist, I'd find there were too many other things out there of interest that I would want to investigate to pursue it alone.

I think we may have a bad name in terms of sticking to tradition. As a developer of 12 years and category theory enthusiast I assure you the analogy holds (at least in some schools).

Would also be happy to discuss over a PM in more nerdy detail.

~ Alan
 
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lansao

lansao

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Your opinion. Mine is different.



I prefer to keep discussions public.

Happy to expand on it. Totally respect difference of opinion here and it's all good. The way I was taught was very axiomatic and underwent experiment with techniques from different arts.

We were told not to limit and when translating aspects of other arts we just had ensure certain principles were followed. There is good Wing Chun in almost every art (including MMA). But it may just be a matter of semantics.
 
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