Placement of Pak Sao

No one should claim to be "a fighter" unless they fight...not train...not do drills...fight.

The problem is some people see light sparring as "fighting" and see that as proof of concept, it gets even "twitchier" imo if that light sparring is against the same fighting methodology.
 
No one should claim to be "a fighter" unless they fight...not train...not do drills...fight.

A lot of people will say that sparring is not fighting. Neither is competition, although it may well be closer.
I have to fight in the ER far more often than I like. But I'm not a fighter.
 
Right you are. Sparring isn't fighting, it's training.

You can spot a fighter from across the room and a lot of them won't call themselves fighters either.
 
Right you are. Sparring isn't fighting, it's training.

You can spot a fighter from across the room and a lot of them won't call themselves fighters either.

The term we tend to use at work on the occassion some rookie starts using the term "fighter" is, "no we have to fight, but that doesn't make us 'fighters'.". You can actually tell the cocky rooks who need an attitude adjustment if/when they start bandying that particular term around.
 
No one should claim to be "a fighter" unless they fight...not train...not do drills...fight.

Georges St Pierre is definitely a fighter, but prefers to call himself a martial artist.

Arguments about who is or isn't entitled to claim what are the lifeblood of forums like this.
 
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Georges St Pierre is definitely a fighter, but prefers to call himself a martial artist.

Is he? Spends a lot of time fighting, does he? I'll grant that he's an excellent competitor, but competing isn't fighting, to my way of thinking.
 
I'll grant that he's an excellent competitor, but competing isn't fighting, to my way of thinking.

Arguments about who is or isn't entitled to claim what are the lifeblood of forums like this.

Ditto with definitions.

All The fighters on this forum, regale us with your tales.
 
Okay, that's fine. It's just the impression I you were new to training from your posts (e.g. you talked a lot about looking around for wing chun teachers, finding Alan Orr, and how you hope one day to be an MMA fighter).

Fighting is a necessary part of the VT training process, but needs to be started at the correct time

I was at a school for a long time but left because it was average and half the stuff didn't work, so was looking around and experience some different ones and settled with Alan.
Alans stuff works for me well. I

Might have my first fight in march, if i do I will try get a video of it.
 
No one should claim to be "a fighter" unless they fight...not train...not do drills...fight.

...ideally, though not in a thread that was intended to be about the precise placement of pak sao in a specific drill...

So, who was it tried to derail the thread with that "fighter" thing? Come on, bro, don't start sh*t you can't finish.
 
Hey all, curious to learn pak sao placement from different lineages. Some questions below:
  • Where on your hand do you make contact?
  • Where on your opponents arm (in fighting range) does your hand stop?
  • What pak sao exercises do you practice?
~ Alan

Hey Alan,

- For the intercepting part of the pak, we use both of the bottom pads of the hand to contact the arm initially
- This depends on if we're using occupy space strategy, loi lau hoi sung, or just a pak technique. In loi lau hoi sung, we try to connect closer to the elbow, run the bridge to the wrist, then settle in the mid bridge where the opponent can't elbow or grab (controlling both ends).
- Centerline Pak, 5 line pak, inside gate pak, Pak Kiu, Occupy space, Loi Lau Hoi Sung pak, Pak/Pak Jong and a few others I'm sure I'm forgetting
 
Hey Alan,

- For the intercepting part of the pak, we use both of the bottom pads of the hand to contact the arm initially
- This depends on if we're using occupy space strategy, loi lau hoi sung, or just a pak technique. In loi lau hoi sung, we try to connect closer to the elbow, run the bridge to the wrist, then settle in the mid bridge where the opponent can't elbow or grab (controlling both ends).
- Centerline Pak, 5 line pak, inside gate pak, Pak Kiu, Occupy space, Loi Lau Hoi Sung pak, Pak/Pak Jong and a few others I'm sure I'm forgetting

Thanks for your input Eric.
 
What exactly did I start, bro?

You made the "No one should claim to be a fighter ..." statement in a thread about Pak Sao. Then, when myself and others pick up on that, you say, "Oh no, we shouldn't discuss that on a thread about Pak Sao.."

Do you claim to be a fighter? See someone on here you think made such a claim, but shouldn't? Why bring it up at all?

I personally don't mind if threads wander off track, as long as they don't end up in the usual "PB VT is the only one / no it isn't" stalemate that too many do.

Who here claims to be a fighter, and who do you (plural) feel claims to be but isn't?

At 62, I don't have any aspirations to be "a fighter", whatever that means. After being on and off Wing Chun forums since last century, I've been called every name and received every possible criticism that anyone here is likely to come up with. But, call me a non-fighter, theoretician, anything else you like. Go for it.
 
You made the "No one should claim to be a fighter ..." statement in a thread about Pak Sao. ...

Honestly, I think we're misunderstanding each other and rather than challenge each other from different continents, let me just offer an olive branch and a bit of explanation.

I did not, do not, and will not label myself "a fighter" here or anywhere else. If I did so in a martial arts forum, I would expect to be called out on it and frankly, I will ask publicly that if anyone catches me doing so, please call me out on it.

This thread took the predictable detour of any MT Wing Chun tread (though those comments seem to have been deleted now). As you pointed out, we had to hear a bit of the "PB is The One and the rest of you are living in the Wing Chun Matrix, but I can only free your mind if it wants to be freed". We're all tired of that and I'm just resorting to the ignore tool at this point, because I realize that when you're in a cult, you don't know that you're in a cult, you believe that you know "the truth" and that everyone else is blind and must be educated. Unfortunate, but not worth trying to resolve at this point. If they were at least offering PB wisdom on the topic (in this case, where pak sao should make contact) it might be tolerable, but it's always just "you're wrong, if you knew what I know you'd know that, but you don't." You and I seem to be in the same place on that point.

The 2nd predictable derail shaping up in this thread was the "MMA is better. Why don't you spar? What would and wouldn't work against a professional..." derail that sadly makes it difficult to discuss even a specific technical detail about a particular style anywhere on the internet. Sparring vs fighting came up, we didn't go all the way off of those rails, but it seemed to be heading there, so I gave an opinion. If someone would like to debate that, I kindly and humbly suggest that a fresh thread on that topic, maybe in the General or MMA fora might be more fruitful than one about where on the arm to make contact in a wing chun pak sao drill. But, I don't moderate this forum, I'm not the OP, and honestly I don't really care that much.

I am a bit sensitive about terms like "fighting" and "combat" and even "self defense", but people are free to use them however they want. It helps however, if others in the conversation understand what they mean. Boxers have been called "fighters" for decades but I do consider that a homonym. Cancer survivors are often called "fighters" too, but its meant differently. Context matters. I've talked with combat veterans about their experiences and I do get a little bit protective when people say things like "combat" when taking about their Tuesday night class or even a hard fought match of some kind. Again, I got into this thread because I know something about the drill in question and was offering my perspective. We've seen some diversity of opinion and I think we're all the better for it.

That's all. Nothing more and nothing personal intended on that second point. If you took it differently, I offer my sincere apology and hope that my explanation satisfies you.
 
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Nice little vid on the WSL Pak Sao drill by David Peterson...


The discussion is funny because the whole thing is not even paak-sau in WSLVT. Paak-sau is not separated from the attack or meeting force head-on like that.

Some have taken a beginner coordination drill too far and turned it into a face-off application or sparring platform. It is riddled with problems created and reinforced by misusing it like that.
 
Honestly, I think we're misunderstanding each other and rather than challenge each other from different continents, let me just offer an olive branch and a bit of explanation.
Thanks for this ShortBridge, not sure if I should take any ownership of the thread as the original poster but to the degree I should, I would love for the thread to stay on pak sao.

~ Alan
 
The discussion is funny because the whole thing is not even paak-sau in WSLVT. Paak-sau is not separated from the attack or meeting force head-on like that.

For the sake of discussion, can you elaborate? How is DP and PB method different in comparison? Since both is connected to WSL.
 

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