Placement of Pak Sao

For the sake of discussion, can you elaborate? How is DP and PB method different in comparison? Since both is connected to WSL.

I'm not PB. WSLVT is the same for anyone who spent the time and learned fully.

Paak-sau is an auxiliary action opening the line for a punch with a short shocking force for displacement. There's no head-on confrontation or separation from the attack.

If this drill is to be used at all, it is for beginners' very basic hand-eye coordination checking forward with man-sau, and using some basic entries to train coordination of the step with upper body and limbs moving in to capture space via correct angles.

Some, not knowing any better, take it too far and turn it into a free application/sparring face-off that they use well into their VT training. This is problematic for many reasons.

First, if you are taught this is paak-sau you are trained to stand there slapping chain punches with it. Paak-sau is now not part of an attack, but is used to chase hands. Even once is bad.

Second, it is conditioning one to look for contact and then retract as that contact is also retracted. This is detrimental to LLHS,LSJC.

Third, it creates an arm's length distance and allows the attacker to face us square-on, then has us step in going straight for the arm with various techniques, which gives the opponent the advantage as they get to attack the person while we attack the arm.

Even when some teach for the paak-sau to turn directly into a punch, they are timing when to cut in on an arm, and forgetting about breaking into the opponent's retractions. Too much focus on the hands and losing sight of the goal. Turning a beginner coordination drill into an elaborate application/sparring platform that detrains VT fighting behaviors.

The idea of VT is to find the most simple, direct, and efficient method of attack (Cham-kiu), not allowing a face-off and fighting force with force up the middle like a bull, and to remove obstacles with attacks and not blocks.
 
...WSLVT is the same for anyone who spent the time and learned fully...

And yet you will say that not only DP, but Gary Lam and any student of WSL that does things different than PB are doing it wrong. Either it's the same or it's not.
 
And yet you will say that not only DP, but Gary Lam and any student of WSL that does things different than PB are doing it wrong. Either it's the same or it's not.

I will?
 
You have in the past actually so why should one believe you won't in the future. More than once when someone posts a video, of DP especially, doing something that appears to contradict something that comes from PB or one of his students, you and Guy will challenge it.

Note I am, again, not saying anything bad about PB and WSL but more than once the knowledge of Sifu's who teach the WSL method that isn't on the exact same page as PB get challenged.
 
You have in the past actually so why should one believe you won't in the future.

"Gary Lam and any other student", you say? Quote or you're lying.

More than once when someone posts a video, of DP especially, doing something that appears to contradict something that comes from PB or one of his students, you and Guy will challenge it.

WSLVT is the same for anyone who spent the time and learned fully. PB is not the only one to have done so.

Note I am, again, not saying anything bad about PB and WSL but more than once the knowledge of Sifu's who teach the WSL method that isn't on the exact same page as PB get challenged.

Not true.

Some have openly changed the system and no longer use the VT spelling or have even renamed their own system. No problem. They are not wrong, and I have never said they were.

I don't care who does what. We're talking actual substance. If you are not here for technical discussion and are just looking to sow discord again, please place me back on ignore. I'm not interested.
 
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"Gary Lam or any other student", you say? Quote or you're lying.



WSLVT is the same for anyone who spent the time and learned fully. PB is not the only one to have done so.



Not true.

Some have openly changed the system and no longer use the VT spelling or have even renamed their own system. No problem. They are not wrong, and I have never said they were.

I don't care who does what. We're talking actual substance. If you are not here for technical discussion and are just looking to sow discord again, please place me back on ignore. I'm not interested.


I am not looking to sow discord. My issue is if people wish to engage in informed debate, especially with the appearance of authority/in depth knowledge on a topic, logical consistency is important. Even in this thread the issue rises. The question you were responding made clear that wtxs saw you as being critical of DP. In your answer you say

...WSLVT is the same for anyone who spent the time and learned fully.

which is consistent with other posts you made in the last which downplayed the time/influence/relationship DP has with WSL and WSLVT. Now if you didn't mean to come across like you were taking shots this time around, no worries, but when you do take shots being called out on them isn't sowing discord it's responding to the seed already planted.
 
In terms of quotes...

What "one-handed work" are you guys on about? Both arms are used together. PB didn't lose a whole freaking arm!

Thing is, the VT method is not about the hands. It's the "way of the elbow". So to say PB couldn't learn the standard method shows you know nothing about how VT works.

Other students who spent significant time with WSL share PB's understanding of VT.

Do you think he taught them all "disabled" VT?

The more time people spent with WSL, the more their VT matches PB's. The less time, the less so. Predictably.

As I said earlier, go through the system as taught by PB, or someone with simular time spent with WSL, and it clears away every doubt, inconsistency, and impracticality in what DP teaches.

DP's understanding of VT is limited, as I've briefly detailed, so I don't think he can accurately describe much, but in this case I think "it" doesn't mean other WC that WSL "refined".

Rather "it" refers to fighting and fight training, and this is just the simple, no-nonsense VT approach to punching people directly in the face.

It wasn't WSL's invention and he didn't have to streamline anything himself. That's just VT.

YM was an excellent teacher, as was WSL.

Not every student learned fully from either of them, just like in any MA school.

GL and WKL differ because they openly altered the system.

DP differs due to lack of experience.

Others who spent the most time with WSL and didn't change the system, e.g., CKM, share PB's understanding of VT.

It's all so easy to see.

I could quote more but I have better things to do.

PB WSLVT is the only true WSLVT everything else is changed and that rabbit hole inevitably leads to the "incoherent" and "broken" tropes.
 
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which is consistent with other posts you made in the last which downplayed the time/influence/relationship DP has with WSL and WSLVT. Now if you didn't mean to come across like you were taking shots this time around, no worries, but when you do take shots being called out on them isn't sowing discord it's responding to the seed already planted.

Stating facts is not shot-taking. Do you have any comment on my post about this drill being misunderstood/misused? If not, stop trolling.

PB WSLVT is the only true WSLVT everything else is changed and that rabbit hole inevitably leads to the "incoherent" and "broken" tropes.

I said in the very quotes you provided that PB is not the only one to have learned the full system from WSL!

And I said those who have changed the system have done so openly, even changing the VT spelling or renaming their own system. There is nothing wrong with that!
 
The question you were responding made clear that wtxs saw you as being critical of DP. In your answer you say
...WSLVT is the same for anyone who spent the time and learned fully.

This is because he once again singled out PB for some reason to pit against DP. I was stating that WSLVT is the same for multiple people who learned it fully. It's not DP vs PB. It's just a matter WSLVT being fully understood or not. I don't care who you name. I'm not talking people. I'm talking technical analysis here. If you are not interested in this discussion, go away.
 
It is well known in WSL VT that David Peterson is quite junior to Philipp Bayer and others in terms of time spent, proficiency with the system, and understanding. PB is not the only one in WSL VT to share the understanding that PB demonstrates. That the orthodox understanding is rarely shown is not any mark against it. It is still the orthodox understanding and a different type of investigation than forum questioning is required to understand this (i.e. direct experience)

Compare like with like and you will find a similar answer. Insist on comparing different things and you will find difference. Looks more like a problem of perception and limited experience than anything else.
 
a different type of investigation than forum questioning is required to understand this (i.e. direct experience)

Seems some people are afraid of direct experience, and would rather get info from Google Search.

Every time the discussion comes down to technical analysis, Juany drops out.

Then picks up the same line of guessing about history of people he's never met months later.
 
Seems some people are afraid of direct experience, and would rather get info from Google Search.

Every time the discussion comes down to technical analysis, Juany drops out.

Then picks up the same line of guessing about history of people he's never met months later.

If there was PB around I would check them out but there is not.
 
If there was PB around I would check them out but there is not.

Which is fine, since you aren't making ignorant assumptions and assertions about it and googling for "evidence" to support your guesses.
 
Seems some people are afraid of direct experience, and would rather get info from Google Search.

Every time the discussion comes down to technical analysis, Juany drops out.

Then picks up the same line of guessing about history of people he's never met months later.

I suppose then the best option is just to keep repeating the facts
 
Hey all, curious to learn pak sao placement from different lineages. Some questions below:
  • Where on your hand do you make contact?
  • Where on your opponents arm (in fighting range) does your hand stop?
  • What pak sao exercises do you practice?
~ Alan

Ideally I try to land the center of my palm at their elbow. As for exercises, I practice on the wooden dummy. If I have a partner, I practice against a straight punch or a shove.
 

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