Placement of Pak Sao

[Juany118]

Well I think most of the defenses follow the "it's as if I am attacking" idea. If I use a bio sau, tan sau, bong sau or pak sau they should be using forwarding energy. If they somehow don't encounter a limb then they easily transition into a strike because of the fact they are using forwarding energy. Off the top of my head I can only think of one defense that doesn't transition well into some sort of strike and that is a Chun sau.

 

[guy b.]

I continue to be impressed by what I see of the top WSL sifus, I hope to get a chance to train with someone close to them some day, because I'd love for some of what they have to rub off on me.

I continue to have trouble reconciling what I see to what WSL students post on this forum, though. I think what he was doing and saying did a much better job of making my point than yours.

Not a "top WSL sifu"

 

[Juany118]

Question. I have a couple people on ignore now and see a "show ignored content" notice. Would I be correct in assuming it says something disparaging about DP in terms of his status as a student/Sifu under WSL?

 

[ShortBridge]

Question. I have a couple people on ignore now and see a "show ignored content" notice. Would I be correct in assuming it says something disparaging about DP in terms of his status as a student/Sifu under WSL?

You would be correct, but that was an easy one.

How many fingers am I holding up?

 

[Treznor]

I'm not a sifu... just a keen student... and although I belong to the WSL family (not by blood), I'm in NO way saying I'm right and someone / everyone else is wrong.

As for the video, I saw the 'wrist paks' you mentioned... without wanting to look like I'm defending Sifu David, there are MANY reasons why this could have happened.... the running commentary... plain old mis-placement etc.

Again, the intent should always be to hit... but fit the sake of the dr, we pak... and the positioning I mentioned earlier allows for better structural stability (in my experience).

 

[Juany118]

I'm not a sifu... just a keen student... and although I belong to the WSL family (not by blood), I'm in NO way saying I'm right and someone / everyone else is wrong.

As for the video, I saw the 'wrist paks' you mentioned... without wanting to look like I'm defending Sifu David, there are MANY reasons why this could have happened.... the running commentary... plain old mis-placement etc.

Again, the intent should always be to hit... but fit the sake of the dr, we pak... and the positioning I mentioned earlier allows for better structural stability (in my experience).

Well here is how I look at "wrist" paks. When you are doing many drills, especially when having to "talk" or with newer students your "puncher" is not going to be following through or going full speed. As a consequence your pak is going to strike closer to the fist itself. Like I said earlier...

The basic drill is simply to become accustomed to making contact in such a manner, that you are using forwarding force along the center line vs slapping perpendicularly, which part of you hand should make contact, and that all of the above results in "catching" the incoming punch so you don't over commit etc. If the punch was a full on punch, with follow through, it would naturally end up further along the forearm.

If you look at that 4 minute mark you see DP has the proper extension of his elbow (or close enough), its the distance between the two people and the fact the other person is often not getting proper extension that forces the contact. At least that is how it looks to me.

 

[anerlich]

Not a "top WSL sifu"

Agree. Doesn't look any better than the Phil Bayer videos.

 

[dudewingchun]

Wheres all the videos at showing the paks sao's done in real time? Why is everything only a demo with a partner but never showing live application after the demo?

 

[wckf92]

Wheres all the videos at showing the paks sao's done in real time? Why is everything only a demo with a partner but never showing live application after the demo?

good question!

 

[Juany118]

Wheres all the videos at showing the paks sao's done in real time? Why is everything only a demo with a partner but never showing live application after the demo?

It's a good question indeed. I think the issue is two fold though. First a pak is arguably the easiest to train but the hardest to execute. It's a lot easier to "miss" with it since you are just using the hand vs the arm itself as in a bong, tan etc.

I have seen it used in real competition but unless you slow it down it often looks like the person is "slap boxing". When you are doing a demo, especially if you are filming it for publication, I suspect they want things to look "clean".

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[ShortBridge]

I think that I've probably belabored my point enough in this discussion, but let me add, that I don't think there is anything about pak sao that makes it difficult to execute against a non-compliant opponent, at least not more difficult than anything else. But, it really comes down to what you think a successful pak sao is supposed to do. If your objective is to make contact with a specific spot on the arm of someone throwing a non-coopertive punch, then yeah...really difficult.

As I said in my other post, I was taught and teach that pak sao, like most of our hands are not "blocks" (actually David Peterson says the same in his video, if you listen). My objective with a pak sao is to claim space and attack center, there is some expectation that it will meet an oncoming arm or I would have chosen something else, but success is that I was able to occupy that space, maybe get a bridge and flow in from there.

 

[lansao]

My objective with a pak sao is to claim space and attack center, there is some expectation that it will meet an oncoming arm or I would have chosen something else, but success is that I was able to occupy that space, maybe get a bridge and flow in from there.

Very well said. Thank you, Sifu.

~ Alan

 

[dudewingchun]

I think people extend too much with a pak sao tbh, I used to do that until started sparring with an actual amateur fighter, he was seeing habits like that and setting me up for shots. So would throw a feint jab, I automatically go to do a typical pak sao and end up getting hooked instead.

 

[guy b.]

I think people extend too much with a pak sao tbh, I used to do that until started sparring with an actual amateur fighter, he was seeing habits like that and setting me up for shots. So would throw a feint jab, I automatically go to do a typical pak sao and end up getting hooked instead.

Sounds like sparring too early, can be damaging to skill development

 

[geezer]

Sounds like sparring too early, can be damaging to skill development

Sounds like sparring helped him identify and correct a problem!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wheres all the videos at showing the paks sao's done in real time? Why is everything only a demo with a partner but never showing live application after the demo?

The reason is simple. When you use Pak to intersect a punch, you try to "use a point to make contact on a line".

- Your hand may contact on your opponent's fore-arm, or
- Your hand may contact on your opponent's upper-arm,

your chance is much lower.

When you use a circular motion to move your arm to block your opponent's arm, you try to "use a line to make contact on another line".

- Your fore-arm may contact on your opponent's fore-arm, or
- Your upper-arm may contact on your opponent's fore-arm, or
- Your fore-arm may contact on your opponent's upper-arm, or
- Your upper-arm may contact on your opponent's upper-arm,

your chance will be much higher.

Here is an example that you try to "use a line to make contact on another line".

 

[Lobo66]

Pak da in sparring

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10205983609125997

 

[Juany118]

Sounds like sparring helped him identify and correct a problem!

Exactly.

One addendum, I don't know why I forgot this but another reason we shoot for the wrist at my school is because we learn Kali in tandem. If in one half of the class we were shooting for the forearm, come knife time people would be getting "cut" with a training knife left and right.

Obviously this isn't an issue for someone only studying WC but I think this, and the idea of sparring with the amatuer boxer is further evidence of something you and I have talked about; that a weakness of current WC training is that few spar or train with people studying other arts. Other people aren't going to punch directly along the centerline. Other styles make an art of the feint. You have to adapt to the situation at hand and saying "well if that happens you should study a different art" is basically saying you are wasting your time studying what you currently are.

Now in regards to the point about learning things. I actually always found it odd when people say "no hand chasing!!!!!" And then say "you must stop your opponent's strike here" because to me that is actually taking hand chasing to a new level.

 

[ShortBridge]

...
One addendum, I don't know why I forgot this but another reason we shoot for the wrist at my school is because we learn Kali in tandem. If in one half of the class we were shooting for the forearm, come knife time people would be getting "cut" with a training knife left and right.

...

Ah! That is an important clarification.

Wing Chun and Kali are very different systems, despite the fact that they look a little bit like each other at times and a lot of people combine them and/or do both. I think we have the alliance between Bruce Lee and Dan Inasanto to thank for that. I have no judgement or condemnation for people choosing to do both or combine that two.

But, you can't attribute things from Kali to Wing Chun. They are different systems, different approaches and different methods. I get why in a weapons system you target the hands/wrists and why you want to be out of range of something sharp and pointy, but the question I was responding to was about pak sao in Wing Chun.

In Wing Chun, you want to dominate their space. The "center" isn't their wrist or their elbow it's closer to their spine. I want my students' primary focus to be on getting to the person that has the hands attached to them, not their hands. We do occasionally talk about defending against weapons and we "spar" (if you will) with training weapons to see how that changes things and it certainly does a bit. But, I don't redefine Wing Chun around those scenarios.

I could say "if you were in a scuba diving fight like in a James Bond movie with mutliple attackers and one of them had a spear gun, you wouldn't be able to maintain your stance". That would be true, but it wouldn't use that point to redefine Wing Chun. When you get into rules based contests, the rules favor some techniques and discount or disallow others. If you participate in those contests, you have to adjust your approach accordingly, but that doesn't change anything about the system outside of that context.

No disrespect to FMAs, but they aren't Wing Chun and Wing Chun can't be explained through them anymore than they should be changed based on Wing Chun principles.

 

[Juany118]

Ah! That is an important clarification.

Wing Chun and Kali are very different systems, despite the fact that they look a little bit like each other at times and a lot of people combine them and/or do both. I think we have the alliance between Bruce Lee and Dan Inasanto to thank for that. I have no judgement or condemnation for people choosing to do both or combine that two.

But, you can't attribute things from Kali to Wing Chun. They are different systems, different approaches and different methods. I get why in a weapons system you target the hands/wrists and why you want to be out of range of something sharp and pointy, but the question I was responding to was about pak sao in Wing Chun.

In Wing Chun, you want to dominate their space. The "center" isn't their wrist or their elbow it's closer to their spine. I want my students' primary focus to be on getting to the person that has the hands attached to them, not their hands. We do occasionally talk about defending against weapons and we "spar" (if you will) with training weapons to see how that changes things and it certainly does a bit. But, I don't redefine Wing Chun around those scenarios.

I could say "if you were in a scuba diving fight like in a James Bond movie with mutliple attackers and one of them had a spear gun, you wouldn't be able to maintain your stance". That would be true, but it wouldn't use that point to redefine Wing Chun. When you get into rules based contests, the rules favor some techniques and discount or disallow others. If you participate in those contests, you have to adjust your approach accordingly, but that doesn't change anything about the system outside of that context.

No disrespect to FMAs, but they aren't Wing Chun and Wing Chun can't be explained through them anymore than they should be changed based on Wing Chun principles.

First let me explain what I mean by parallel. Most classes are 1/2 class WC, 1/2 Kali, they aren't taught at the same time, it's literally a Part I, Part 2 class. One day a week an instructor certified as a Provisional Master by Grand Master William Cheung teaches a "pure" WC class.

That said TWC is very similar to the Kali we study (unarmed) in that while you want to attack along your centerline to the opponent's centerline you do so from the blind side whenever possible. So a typical TWC entry will have me stepping in "jamming" him but (roughly) on a 45 degree angle. So both arts have "zoning" built in. Once on the flank the idea is that your attacks maintain that dominant position by taking their balance/center. If they maintain their balance, you zone again to their new flank.

In principle however the pak in either works as follows (again unarmed). In the pak sao drill you may aim for the wrist BUT in practice, action and reaction being what they are, you will naturally end up further on the forearm, so it is to get you used to the motion, nature of the contact, maintaining forwarding energy etc. The Master who teaches the WC exclusive class follows this method and he knows little and has nothing to do with the Kali training.

If facing a knife in Kali it is admittedly changed a little bit. Then it is more of a pass to the side rather than a forward along the centerline and is, largely, an "oh crap" maneuver because the last thing you want to do is be simply passing a blade, you want to be controlling the limb holding the knife until disarm (if unarmed vs armed, both armed, different ball game.)

So it's more a matter of one reinforcing the other. Aiming for the wrist in the stereotypical pak drill will likely in a real fight end up higher on the arm due to the dynamics of a real fight, also aiming for the wrist in that drill helps minimize confusion when you transition to the knife, the only mental gear that needs to be changed is the direction of the energy.

I should have been more clear but at work so took some short cuts.