There's a lot of truth here -- but sometimes, an instructor does know that the student is tapping too quickly, and may hold it slightly longer or go a little further to show them. That said -- the action should be paired with an explanation, especially if it's a case of a student tapping WAY early (I've had students tap almost before they were even touched...). It shouldn't be a routine case of "I tap, teacher puts me in extra pain."
Permanent injury from training?
- Thread starter KydeX
- Start date
There's a lot of truth here -- but sometimes, an instructor does know that the student is tapping too quickly, and may hold it slightly longer or go a little further to show them. That said -- the action should be paired with an explanation, especially if it's a case of a student tapping WAY early (I've had students tap almost before they were even touched...). It shouldn't be a routine case of "I tap, teacher puts me in extra pain."
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
I agree. Some newer students or more timid ones will tap out of the fear of pain rather than pain itself. It is important to eliminate this fear, but I would always err on the side of caution. If I'm not sure if the person is just scared or in pain I will let go because they may not be as flexible as I think they are and I shouldn't risk it.
garet jax
White Belt
First off, some questions for you:
Who is your instructor?
What exactly has your instructor been doing for "more than 30 years"?
Who is his instructor?
From whom has he learned what he is teaching you?
Speaking from my own limited personal experience training at the dojo of a Japanese menkyo kaiden, I'll tell you that the goal of any good instructor is the same: to transmit the technique without injuring his student in any way. I know this is possible because I've had to learn to do that from experience. It isn't easy. Not by a long shot. But it is possible. If your current instructor can't or won't do this then he shouldn't be instructing anybody.
It might help you to remember that very few people are good at teaching. If you are no longer a kid and all grown up now then you'll use your brain when you train. You will get hurt and may very well get injured. But pain is simply a natural by product of the practice that should NEVER be perceived as some sort of substitute for what the technique is supposed to be teaching you. Attempting to utilize pain as a teaching method is stupid because it is pointless; yes, I get it: pressuring my bone structure beyond a certain point when it is misaligned causes me to go "ouch". Thank you for imparting this mystic wisdom, mighty sensei.
Just some fast food for thought.
- Mark Spada
Sorry that I haven't been on the forum for a while.
To your questions:
I don't really wanna put my instructors name on the internet. Who he initially trained under when he started out, I am not sure. He has gotten most of his instruction from Japan and the Shihans there, including Masaaki Hatsumi. He is probably the highest ranking instructor in my country.
I still see your points. Thank you for replying.
To your questions:
I don't really wanna put my instructors name on the internet. Who he initially trained under when he started out, I am not sure. He has gotten most of his instruction from Japan and the Shihans there, including Masaaki Hatsumi. He is probably the highest ranking instructor in my country.
I still see your points. Thank you for replying.
I don't really care about that, because it has nothing to do with my original question. Whether my instructors are qualified or if their way of instruction is correct is secondary.
I was merely wondering if going home from practice with sore joints every now and then could give any long term problems. It seems as if most here think it can.
I still think my instructors teach effective self defence, I'll just have to be a bit careful and let some of them know that some of my joints are just not as flexible as they seem to think
I was merely wondering if going home from practice with sore joints every now and then could give any long term problems. It seems as if most here think it can.
I still think my instructors teach effective self defence, I'll just have to be a bit careful and let some of them know that some of my joints are just not as flexible as they seem to think
garet jax
White Belt
Why don't you want to reveal the name of your teacher? Are you ashamed of him or embarrassed to train at his dojo?
It should go without saying that your teacher never actually "trained with" Hatsumi sensei. Many people have made this claim, to be sure. What they really mean is that they were in the same room as Hatsumi sensei and observed his movement. But they did not in fact interact with him they way they would with another training partner.
It should also go without saying that your teacher may indeed be the highest ranking instructor in your country, wherever that is. But it's a moot point considering that rank in the Bujinkan organization is meaningless.
- Mark Spada
Last edited:
garet jax
White Belt
Your instructor's qualifications have everything to do with whether or not you are being injured during practice. If your instructor is pefforming the technique correctly and moving properly, the potential for injury during practice would be minimal at best.
Why do you think your instructor teaches effective self-defense? The koryu disseminated within the Bujinkan organization have absolutely nothing to do with self-defense.
- Mark Spada
Last edited:
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
I was merely wondering if going home from practice with sore joints every now and then could give any long term problems. It seems as if most here think it can.
I still think my instructors teach effective self defence, I'll just have to be a bit careful and let some of them know that some of my joints are just not as flexible as they seem to think
It kind of depends what you really mean by sore joints. Soreness is expected to a degree, but you shouldn't feel the need to ice yourself down every night because of pain. The whole point of self-defense is to keep yourself safe from harm, yeah? I do think that just bringing it up to them should get them to lighten up a bit. That is, unless your training partners are A-holes. Let us know how they respond.
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
He probably doesn't want random, annonymous people on the internet to view his instructor as overly cruel or neglectful of proper training methods. Anything can be skewed on the web and taken out of context rather easily. I assume KydeX is trying to avoid dragging his teacher through the mud without cause, but that is just my guess. If he doesn't want to reveal him, I don't think we should pressure him for a name.
"Trained with" could also be taken as "trained under", in which case could include direct supervision from Hatsumi himself. It would depend when he started training. He could have just been another face in the crowd at the Hombu, or his actual training partners could include people like Tanemura, Manaka, Shirashi, and Nagato for all we know.
Yeah rank in the Bujinkan can be arbitrary, but just cause some 10th dans are bad, doesn't mean KydeX's instructor isn't good at what he does. It's possible he could have some ranking in the actual ryuha as well.
Yes and no, I think. Yes, an instructor should be skilled enough to know whether is student can or can't properly recieve a technique without serious risk of injury, but it is not that uncommon to find instructors who are used to harder applications of techniques. It could be that his instructor is being too rough, possibly negligent, or it could be that KydeX is just far less flexible than the other students. We don't know; and I don't think we are in a clear enough position to question the legitimacy or quality of his instructor's skill or teaching ability.
Well, I would argue that some of the kata found in togakure ryu are very much about self-defense, but that is beside the point. The Bujinkan does not necessarily teach the koryu as the way the were originally presented. The Bujinkan emphasises its training through Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Many, many principles and skills can very easily be trained from a self-defense perspective. So while many of the arts in the Bujinkan many not have been originally intended for self-defense, I would completely disagree with the assertation that they "have absolutely nothing to do with self-defense"
garet jax
White Belt
By this assertion, he shouldn't have bothered lowering himself into the so-called "mud" with the rest of us in the first place. What happened to this world? Is it a generation Y or Z thing? Surely the geeks have inherited the earth; the world seems no longer to be populated by men, but rather by grown teenagers who purport to practice "warrior" arts....while simultaneously quivering in their tabi when confronted with a direct question on an internet discussion forum.
Whatever his reasoning, this guy's teacher is not a fragile, exotic pet. Neither is he an untouchable demigod who resides in some higher stratosphere. There are no special rules for behavior in the dojo that somehow evaporate off the mat. Asking someone the identity of their teacher isn't any different than asking who their parents are and where they come from.
And refusing to answer direct questions regarding subject matter one regards as anything but shameful is cowardice.
- Mark Spada
garet jax
White Belt
The Bujinkan does not teach the koryu because the Bujinkan is an organization.
In what way were the koryu "originally" presented? Can you please substantiate this claim?
- Mark Spada
@Himura Kenshin: you are correct in most of your assumptions. Thx for trying to see my side of things.
@Garet Jax: I still don't see the point in turning this into a discussion about my instructor. Sure, he could be the most incompetent idiot who ever practiced in the Bujinkan, but it's still irrelevant to the original question, which was more of a medical question. Whether you think I'm a coward or not does not really concern me. I am merely respecting his privacy, as he would probably not want his name put out here.
@Garet Jax: I still don't see the point in turning this into a discussion about my instructor. Sure, he could be the most incompetent idiot who ever practiced in the Bujinkan, but it's still irrelevant to the original question, which was more of a medical question. Whether you think I'm a coward or not does not really concern me. I am merely respecting his privacy, as he would probably not want his name put out here.
garet jax
White Belt
You were the one who inculcated your instructor by coming on here and asking people if the way in which your instructor is instructing you is unhealthy in the long term. In other words, if you were so concerned about respecting your instructor's privacy then you would have stayed away from the board in the first place. This is, of course, disregarding the fact that internet privacy is a complete fallacy.
My point still stands. Refusing to answer a direct question that in reality does not in any way violate anyone's privacy is weak, plain and simple. Please explain to me how me knowing your instructor's name in any way impacts on him or his relationship with you. Unless he is an "incompetent idiot", as you put it, and you are ashamed of your association with him.
If you feel that the relationship you have with this instructor is in any way beneficial then more power to you. But knowing who your teacher is, who he practiced with and still practices with, is not only relevant to the topic of discussion it is important to your own training. The Bujinkan is not some sort of fraternal club, the members of which all support each other and are on the same page. The Bujinkan is merely an organizational body that hands out rank through the hombu dojo in Noda. Your instructor could be teaching you a mishmash of disparate component skills and theories based on piss poor experience that have nothing whatsoever to do with the koryu that Hatsumi sensei inherited from his teacher. If you're okay with that, great....perhaps you're the sort who is content to spend their time associating with an "incompetent idiot", as you put it. But don't go crying to anyone when he ends ups directly or inadvertently causing you short or long term injury as a result.
- Mark Spada
Folks, reign it in a tad. MT's rules don't require him to identify his instructor, and it's not all that relevant.
He's got concerns about soreness after training. Yep, you can certainly do serious or permanent damage if you train too hard or take joints too far. He probably should discuss it with his instructor and seniors, and see whether they're doing this with care and good intentions, or because they have fun putting him in pain.
He's got concerns about soreness after training. Yep, you can certainly do serious or permanent damage if you train too hard or take joints too far. He probably should discuss it with his instructor and seniors, and see whether they're doing this with care and good intentions, or because they have fun putting him in pain.
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
What I meant was that a lot of damage can be done to a person's reputation based on hearsay or what's written on the internet. If the OP were to reveal his teacher's name, one could do a google search for that name, end up hear and may come to the possibly false conclusion that the teacher is negligent of proper saftey in the dojo.
No. It's prudence.
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
The Bujinkan as an organization teaches Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.
Before the formation of the Bujinkan the schools still existed and were passed on as individual systems. Now the Bujinkan teaches Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is more of an amalgamation of the principles than the specific individual ryuha themselves. They may teach specific kata from each ryuha, but that does not mean you are going to sign up in the bujinkan and expect to be taught and ranked in Togakure ryu.
garet jax
White Belt
Thanks for the wikipedia article. But the Bujinkan as an organization doesn't teach anything. I have been presented with specific kata from specific ryu-ha in Japanese dojo. It wasn't "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu". Every time I have ever been presented with "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" it has bared little resemblance to the last iteration of the term, each after each different from the last. I agree that it is an amalgamation, but it is an amalgamation concocted mostly by various gaijin instructors around the world over the past several decades.
In any case, this subject has nothing to do with the topic being discussed.
- Mark Spada
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
So when you meet requirements, you are presented with certification of the kata rather than an overall rank in BBT? I have not heard of this happening, but then again, I am not in the bujinkan and am going based mostly on what others have said here on MT.
Uh...you asked me for clarification, but okay.
