Where do we draw the line?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

As we all know, it's not very constructive to ask questions along the lines of "but if I do that, what if he kicks/punches/cuts/stabs/shoots/grabs me here like this?*" And instructors who are capable of constructively dealing with so-called what if-monkeys are preciously few. But when I come to think of it, all the people I've ever heard asking those kinds of questions have been men in their late thirties, and early to mid-forties who've just started training. Something to ponder.







*What you should be asking instead if you ask me, is this: "if he can do x to me at this point, what have I done wrong?"

 

[Rubber Tanto]

In our dojo, we work on kata first in the traditional sense. And it is up to the tori/uke to decide if they want to add resistance to their training as they progress and become more comfortable with the technique they are working on. I have some "fixed" training partners that I love to train with because they, like me, like to see what happans when the technique is attempted under resistance, at slow speed and at real time.

I find this helps find ways to make a technique work better if it initially fails. Last week was a classic example where during light sparring after class with a fellow student, I manged to apply a genseki effortlessly for the first time to a completely resistant opponent that knew it was coming. It has taken me many attemps to make it work through resistant training, and I don't think I would have been able to had I not been practicing this in a resistant manner.

Anyway, back on topic. At the end of class, we run through what we have learnt under pressure. By having a line of uke attack you, one by one with a random punch/kick/grab and you seeing what comes to mind and executing that technique/s to takedown. It is down slow (say 60% speed) so as it is still a focus on technique. The uke must resist but still understand that their job is to help the tori learn and not to defeat the tori. When I strike is made, they must act accordingly to the strike and not pretend it didnt happen just because it was not full contact.

We do light sparring that is at 50% speed with very light contact also, this is really good at seeing what works when and what doesn't and maintains the taijutsu (so that it doesn't just become a fight). It also teaches us where we may leave potential openings for attack when under pressure.

I hope this was clear.

In a nutshell, I guess I'm saying that I like to learn and understand the mechanics of a technique on a compliant uke, but I feel I getter a better grasp of it after I have tried it on a resistant one under pressure.
~Nick

 

[chrisa]

I am new to taijutsu and have only been training in it now for about two months. My instructor is Luke Molitor of Dallas Tx and is excellent at his instructions, but I wanted to ask. If you guys wanted to give some advice to the new ukes out there what would it be. Maybe some of you guys advice will help me to become a better uke to the guys at my dojo.

 

[Kreth]

I am new to taijutsu and have only been training in it now for about two months. My instructor is Luke Molitor of Dallas Tx and is excellent at his instructions, but I wanted to ask. If you guys wanted to give some advice to the new ukes out there what would it be. Maybe some of you guys advice will help me to become a better uke to the guys at my dojo.

Don't "help" your training partner. If they don't have a lock just right or your balance broken, then don't go down. They'll learn better, and you'll get to work on your ukemi when they do get it right.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Don't "help" your training partner. If they don't have a lock just right or your balance broken, then don't go down. They'll learn better, and you'll get to work on your ukemi when they do get it right.

This definately is sage advice!

 

[newtothe dark]

One of the things I find that helps is make sure to change up your UKE for different body sizes big and strong and small faster etc some with longer arms and such lets you 'feel' the movement in use. Just something I like.

 

[Kreth]

One of the things I find that helps is make sure to change up your UKE for different body sizes big and strong and small faster etc some with longer arms and such lets you 'feel' the movement in use. Just something I like.

Good point. A lot of people find one uke they're comfortable with and stick with them.

 

[Bigshadow]

One of the things I find that helps is make sure to change up your UKE for different body sizes big and strong and small faster etc some with longer arms and such lets you 'feel' the movement in use. Just something I like.

Very good point! I believe this is very important.

 

[newtothe dark]

One of the other things i like to do is work with sensitivity and distraction. By this i mean i will train with loud annoying music playing (you know what you hate hehe) calm peaceful training another time. I also like to traing in winter gloves sometimes because we cant control the real world our grip might not be sure we might be at a concert, these things vastly affect how our skills will work so I try in training to cover as many differences. Just a thought I wanted to add hope it helps.

 

[Bigshadow]

One of the other things i like to do is work with sensitivity and distraction. By this i mean i will train with loud annoying music playing (you know what you hate hehe) calm peaceful training another time. I also like to traing in winter gloves sometimes because we cant control the real world our grip might not be sure we might be at a concert, these things vastly affect how our skills will work so I try in training to cover as many differences. Just a thought I wanted to add hope it helps.

I just try to focus on the training and the principles that underly everything and teach myself to always be moving next, rather than focusing on training for every scenario I can dream up. The way I see it, once I learned to ride the bike, I didn't have to learn it over again when I rode it in the rain or in the traffic. It is all the same. Just my thoughts.

 

[stephen]

I am new to taijutsu and have only been training in it now for about two months. My instructor is Luke Molitor of Dallas Tx and is excellent at his instructions, but I wanted to ask. If you guys wanted to give some advice to the new ukes out there what would it be. Maybe some of you guys advice will help me to become a better uke to the guys at my dojo.

Attack with intent to harm your partner. You can, and should, go slow but it needs to be a 'real' attack.

The dynamics (but not the speed or power) need to be exactly the same as how you would attack normally. Otherwise, you'll be doing your partner a disservice by not allowing them to train properly, and you'll be doing yourself a disservice by learning to attack stupidly.

When it's necessary, it will be easy to 'drop' in speed and power if your mechanics are correct.

 

[Bigshadow]

The dynamics (but not the speed or power) need to be exactly the same as how you would attack normally.

I agree, with exception of the power part. If you move correctly, there will be strength/power even though you move slow. I have had my bell rung a few times from someone who had good taijutsu but was moving slowly.

 

[stephen]

I agree, with exception of the power part. If you move correctly, there will be strength/power even though you move slow. I have had my bell rung a few times from someone who had good taijutsu but was moving slowly.

Fair enough.

Find: power
Replace: strength

better.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Fair enough.

Find: power
Replace: strength

better.

Which is the exact reason we have so many people walking around just itching to ***** you over when training.

The current Bujinkan philosophy of not giving your opponent any information or intention to work with is a brilliant concept when executed properly. However, it carries with it a frequently overlooked side effect - it makes the people training unable to sense the difference between power and strength. Which means that the usual cop-out is that as soon as it starts to hurt, the other guy's using strength.

 

[theletch1]

Which is the exact reason we have so many people walking around just itching to ***** you over when training.

The current Bujinkan philosophy of not giving your opponent any information or intention to work with is a brilliant concept when executed properly. However, it carries with it a frequently overlooked side effect - it makes the people training unable to sense the difference between power and strength. Which means that the usual cop-out is that as soon as it starts to hurt, the other guy's using strength.

Attend a few aikido classes and you'll see many instances where using "strength" will actually negate to technique while using "power" and proper form will cause excruciating pain. Many beginners attempt to muscle their way through a technique because they simply don't understand the difference as stated in Bigshadow's post.

 

[Bigshadow]

Which is the exact reason we have so many people walking around just itching to ***** you over when training.

The current Bujinkan philosophy of not giving your opponent any information or intention to work with is a brilliant concept when executed properly. However, it carries with it a frequently overlooked side effect - it makes the people training unable to sense the difference between power and strength. Which means that the usual cop-out is that as soon as it starts to hurt, the other guy's using strength.

Fortunately that doesn't happen in the groups I have trained with here in Florida, at least not often. Most that I have trained with, were totally destroying me and not using muscle. To me when they try to muscle things, it seems it isn't nearly as effective and I can often use it against them, so it seems anyway.

 

[stephen]

Which is the exact reason we have so many people walking around just itching to ***** you over when training.

I've seen bad training, but I don't think most of it is intentional. However, you're exactly correct, I think, concerning the misunderstanding between strength and power and the resultant suckage that can occur.

The current Bujinkan philosophy of not giving your opponent any information or intention to work with is a brilliant concept when executed properly.
However, it carries with it a frequently overlooked side effect - it makes the people training unable to sense the difference between power and strength.

This is a really good point, I think it demonstrates a way of working with intention that I do not prefer. I like to think of it this way: New beginners are usually taught to do things in exaggerated way and later told to make it smaller and tighter. When dealing with newer people as tori, I think that uke should provide more intention than dealing with experienced people.

However, the key point is that the mechanics need to be the same in either case. Otherwise the uke is teaching themselves to attack poorly; one step forward, one step back training. There is a huge problem with, which is I think exactly what you're saying, mistaking weak and 'wet-noodly' with this no-intention/no-data idea.

If people are being noodly, there's no need to do a "technique" - just punch the guy in the noggin! This can lead to a perceived problem when training outside your dojo in situations where you're supposed to be working on "Technique 4 section B" and, really, it's just not going to work 'cause what the attacker needs is a right hook to the mouth.

Kata are two sided, the attack HAS to be good otherwise the uke just won't get that far in his attack - you'll just get him first.

So, If I'm punching at a newer guy I try to put enough intention to fill the room. If I'm punching at MY teacher, I try to be as intentionless and sneaky as possible. Both circumstances are good training for me and for my partner.

I'm starting to ramble tangentially, so I'll stop for now - but I think this is an excellent topic.

Which means that the usual cop-out is that as soon as it starts to hurt, the other guy's using strength.

Yeah, I guess we all provide internal and external cop-outs. My goal is to try to recognize when I'm BS-ing myself and stop it. It's the hardest part of my training. Shinshin Shingan, right?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Attend a few aikido classes and you'll see many instances where using "strength" will actually negate to technique while using "power" and proper form will cause excruciating pain. Many beginners attempt to muscle their way through a technique because they simply don't understand the difference as stated in Bigshadow's post.

Either I don't understand, or we're saying the same thing.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Fortunately that doesn't happen in the groups I have trained with here in Florida, at least not often. Most that I have trained with, were totally destroying me and not using muscle. To me when they try to muscle things, it seems it isn't nearly as effective and I can often use it against them, so it seems anyway.

Move around a bit, why don't you. :ultracool

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I've seen bad training, but I don't think most of it is intentional.

I think it is, albeit on a subconscious level.

If people are being noodly, there's no need to do a "technique" - just punch the guy in the noggin! This can lead to a perceived problem when training outside your dojo in situations where you're supposed to be working on "Technique 4 section B" and, really, it's just not going to work 'cause what the attacker needs is a right hook to the mouth.

Everyone performes worse outside their own dojo. There's too many people with too many ideas as to what's supposed to be going on, which means that a lot of the times you're programming yourself to perform a technique under unsuitable circumstances.

So, If I'm punching at a newer guy I try to put enough intention to fill the room. If I'm punching at MY teacher, I try to be as intentionless and sneaky as possible.

Picture this scenario - the newer guy interprets your assertiveness as non-purposeful aggression on your part, and either chickens out or tries to step up to the challenge with an added dosage of strength and hostility. I've seen both happen plenty of times.