Parent in class

[Gerry Seymour]

I see. In which case I would say this whole situation could have been avoided if he didn't give out those tips. Whenever I cover another teacher's class I don't pass any of the students on any skills or recommend them to be promoted to the next class, as I don't know what standards the other teacher is using to evaluate the students. You avoid a lot of complications that way. Just teach the class and leave the evaluating and promoting to their regular instructor.

Sometimes the regular instructor is okay with it, and will ask. It might be a fairly routine evaluation (gotta be able to do these 5 things), in which case anyone with enough experience would be okay.

It might also be that the CI asked him to do it, to see how he handles the evaluations. It's a useful part of training future instructors.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I wouldn't have done but I got told to do it since it's coming up to a test and the instructor wanted them evaluated so he knows who needs extra help in the coming weeks before the test

Lesson learned then I think. If another teacher asks me to assess their student for them while I'm covering their lesson I always say no. Obviously if they are looking for a second opinion on a student I will give it, but at the end of the day it's their job to pass the student on a skill, not me.

 

[Headhunter]

Lesson learned then I think. If another teacher asks me to assess their student for them while I'm covering their lesson I always say no. Obviously if they are looking for a second opinion on a student I will give it, but at the end of the day it's their job to pass the student on a skill, not me.

No I have no regrets, the kids who got it deserved it, the kid that didnt deserve it didn't get it. I'm going to disobey what the head instructor says because I'm scared of what some bullying parent will think if everyone has that attitude no one will ever fail even if they deserve to. The parents should have 0 influence on how the classes are run or what people think. And if I'm asked to do it again I'll do it. I don't look for trouble but then again I'm not going to be scared to do what I think is right because of what a pushy parent thinks.

 

[Steve]

I asked the question based on what happened not whether I'm telling the truth or not

But we don't know what happened. you asked a question based on your version of what happened. I answered it. You were clearly expecting everyone to pat you on the back and when I didn't, you got defensive and started puffing up.

Wanna hear something interesting? When someone starts getting really defensive and aggressively denies lying, they're probably lying.

 

[Headhunter]

But we don't know what happened. you asked a question based on your version of what happened. I answered it. You were clearly expecting everyone to pat you on the back and when I didn't, you got defensive and started puffing up.

Wanna hear something interesting? When someone starts getting really defensive and aggressively denies lying, they're probably lying.

Okay whatever you say you seem to want to believe I'm a liar so you believe whatever you want

 

[RTKDCMB]

Lesson learned then I think. If another teacher asks me to assess their student for them while I'm covering their lesson I always say no. Obviously if they are looking for a second opinion on a student I will give it, but at the end of the day it's their job to pass the student on a skill, not me.

It's also your job to follow the instructions given to you by your instructor. If your instructor has asked you to assess a student then he is likely delegating rather than passing the buck.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

It's also your job to follow the instructions given to you by your instructor. If your instructor has asked you to assess a student then he is likely delegating rather than passing the buck.

I agree, which is why I personally feel the fault lies with the regular instructor rather than the OP. The other main reason why I wouldn't pass assessment on another instructor's student is because you don't see the consistency when you only see a skill done once. For me, it's not enough for a student to be able to do a skill once, they have to show consistency in the skill. If they can do that skill to the same standard 3 weeks in a row, then I deem them competent and pass them on it.

Of course, this is the standard that I follow but I've found it works well. Anyone can do a skill by luck once, but to do it multiple times without being told exactly what to do requires them to understand the skill more.

 

[Steve]

Okay whatever you say you seem to want to believe I'm a liar so you believe whatever you want

LOL. Well, I didn't in the beginning, but I sure do now. And to be clear, not lying. Just kind of massaging the truth so that it makes you sound like half victim and half hero.

Let me put it this way, if you acted at all with that parent the way you are with me now, I'm not surprised one bit things got out of hand.

There probably was an incident with a parent in your class, and it probably involved you not giving a "tip" to the kid. The parent was probably upset. I don't doubt any of that actually happened. I also have zero doubt it didn't go down in the way you describe it above, and based on your reaction, I am pretty sure you know it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree, which is why I personally feel the fault lies with the regular instructor rather than the OP. The other main reason why I wouldn't pass assessment on another instructor's student is because you don't see the consistency when you only see a skill done once. For me, it's not enough for a student to be able to do a skill once, they have to show consistency in the skill. If they can do that skill to the same standard 3 weeks in a row, then I deem them competent and pass them on it.

Of course, this is the standard that I follow but I've found it works well. Anyone can do a skill by luck once, but to do it multiple times without being told exactly what to do requires them to understand the skill more.

It depends how you use testing. My students don't get to test until I see the consistency in class. If this instructor applies that to tip qualification (or if tip qualification just requires they be able to do something - as opposed to doing it consistently), then there's no reason someone else can't do that testing. Because I don't offer testing until someone shows some consistency at the required level, any qualified instructor (and, for lower ranks, even a senior student) could feasibly conduct the test without detrimental effect. For me, the test is one part seeing how they deal with the stress of scrutiny and one part a chance for someone to give them feedback across the range of tested material all at once. I wouldn't pass on testing of a senior student to someone else (nobody else qualified to do those tests), but I would for a junior student.

 

[Buka]

I've never had a kid misbehave in a class. But then, I've never had a kid who didn't want to be there.
As for any pain in the ash parents - the quicker they are no longer part of the dojo the better for everyone.

 

[Ironbear24]

The guy threatened an experienced martial artist? That's pretty stupid. I would have said ok, here's a tip. "Don't be an *******."

 

[Balrog]

My $0.02 worth....

You, as an assistant, handled everything correctly. Rewards are given on performance, not for showing up. Your handling the encounter with the parent and reporting immediately to the head instructor was absolutely the way to go.

If I were the chief instructor, I would have a closed-door, come-to-Jesus meeting with that father.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Wanna hear something interesting? When someone starts getting really defensive and aggressively denies lying, they're probably lying.

Bit of a catch-22 there. Accuse someone of lying - if they admit it then they're a liar, if the deny it that also means they're a liar.

Yes, I know you said you weren't calling him a liar, but these comments ...

I shared my opinion, which is that I don't find the account entirely credible.

they're probably lying.

I also have zero doubt it didn't go down in the way you describe it above,

...sure sound like you're going beyond a reminder of our normal human fallibility in recalling events neutrally. They read like a direct accusation of dishonesty.

Since I don't know Headhunter and wasn't there for the event in question, I can't offer an opinion on how accurately he is reporting what happened. Maybe he managed to perfectly recall and recount every word and every step of what happened. Maybe his story has the normal amount of human egocentric bias. Maybe he added a ton of spin and distortion. Maybe he made the whole thing up because he's a novelist and wanted to see how we would react to a scene from his latest book. For the sake of productive online conversations, I tend to assume people are telling something pretty close to the truth as they experienced it, unless I see clear indications that something isn't plausible in their account. In this case I don't see anything particularly unbelievable about the story. If it is accurate, then the parent in question was misbehaving to an unusual extent. However in a country with millions of people, then at least a few people are going to encounter a one-in-a-million ******* every day. I know that when I worked retail I had more than a few customers who acted as badly as the father in the story or even worse. I expect such behavior is significantly less common among customers in the martial arts business than in retail, but I wouldn't predict that it never happens either.

Even if we allow for significant subjective bias in the OPs story, if the basic facts are as presented (parent verbally abused and physically threatened an instructor because his kid didn't get belt tips) then my conclusions are the same.

If the OP, refused to award belt tips to the student in question because of some unfair bias toward the student or his father, then the parent was still in the wrong.

If the OP had a snotty attitude or arrogant expression or rude tone of voice when the parent demanded to know why his kid didn't get the tips, then the parent was still in the wrong.

If the OPs words and actions were relatively close to what he as recounted, then he did a good job, even if his demeanor was less calm and collected than he recalls it. Just my opinion.

Also my opinion - if I was the chief instructor and a parent physically threatened one of my assistant instructors, they would be banned from the premises. I'd feel bad for the child if he really wanted to attend classes, but it sounds like the kid doesn't want to be there anyway, so it might be doing him a favor.

 

[Steve]

Bit of a catch-22 there. Accuse someone of lying - if they admit it then they're a liar, if the deny it that also means they're a liar.

Yes, I know you said you weren't calling him a liar, but these comments ...

Oh brother. Okay. I'll try to be more clear. I don't know how biased the story was, and I don't know whether it is intentionally biased (which would be lying) or not. But, I do believe these things don't happen in a vacuum. I think the OP probably didn't help the situation. The parent is, as you note below, also a big part of the problem. And the head instructor. As I said before, I don't know the exact formula, but all three shoulder some responsibility.

...sure sound like you're going beyond a reminder of our normal human fallibility in recalling events neutrally. They read like a direct accusation of dishonesty.

I'll work on that. I think the initial story reads like a war story, along the lines of, "I was just walking along, minding my own business and then, 'Whammo!" this guy comes out of nowhere and punches me in the face."

For context, this is where I started:

Okay, my opinion, it's really impossible to know who shoulders the lion's share of the issues with that encounter. while I don't think we have enough information to know for sure, based only on what's in that post, I'd say there is a trifecta of dysfunction here.

Sounds like that guy is a jerk.

You say things that suggest to me you know the guy and already have a poor opinion of him. So, whether overt or not, that's a problem here. It certainly doesn't help.

I don't know how you could possibly know he does favors for the head instructor, but if that's true, that's a problem. Your description implies that he expects preferential treatment as quid pro quo.

Finally, if the kid routinely acts out in class, and the head instructor (who is normally there) doesn't address it, that's a problem.

Things like this don't just happen the way you describe out of the blue.

And this is where I ended up:

LOL. Well, I didn't in the beginning, but I sure do now. And to be clear, not lying. Just kind of massaging the truth so that it makes you sound like half victim and half hero.

Let me put it this way, if you acted at all with that parent the way you are with me now, I'm not surprised one bit things got out of hand.

There probably was an incident with a parent in your class, and it probably involved you not giving a "tip" to the kid. The parent was probably upset. I don't doubt any of that actually happened. I also have zero doubt it didn't go down in the way you describe it above, and based on your reaction, I am pretty sure you know it.

Not all that different, but sure, I admit that I have come to believe the OP is probably doing more than what is "normal human fallibility." I think he's telling the story in a way that is most advantageous to him.

Let me try this from a different angle. The dad isn't here to defend himself. The head instructor isn't here, either, as far as I know. So, what's the point of this thread? What's the actual point? Surely not just to pat the OP on the back and tell him what a good guy he is.

Or, maybe another way to say it is, if we're being asked our opinion about what happened, and we knowingly limit ourselves to what is overtly stated in the thread, we're not having a real discussion about anything, IMO. I can't be the only one here who read the original post and thought, "Huh... that is an odd sequence of events." Someone accused me of reading between the lines. My response is, of course I'm reading between the lines. At the same time, I welcome more information.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Or, maybe another way to say it is, if we're being asked our opinion about what happened, and we knowingly limit ourselves to what is overtly stated in the thread, we're not having a real discussion about anything,

Well, we kind of have that issue with any discussion we have here. Just about any account that any of us here give about anything is probably filtered through our personal biases and could be outright lies for all most of the people reading could know. When we talk about our martial arts experiences and qualifications, we could be lying. If we mention a sick family member we could be engaging in Munchausen Syndrome by proxy. When we ask for feedback on how to handle a situation we've experienced, we might have twisted the facts to be completely unrecognizable to anyone who was actually there. Heck, everything I've ever posted on this forum could be a complete fabrication. (You could independently verify some of the details with some detective work, but not all of it.)

If we're going to have any actual conversations, though, we have to give each other some benefit of the doubt. I do generally assume there is some inherent bias in anyone's stories, even if they're doing their best to be completely honest, because our perceptions and memories are imperfect. I don't think there's much to be gained by pointing this out to people every time they tell me something that happened to them, though. For the sake of having a conversation, I will by default provisionally accept their version of events if I'm going to engage in a discussion.

There are exceptions, of course.

If some action is demanded of me in response to the story then I will require a higher burden of proof. If the OP had identified the problem parent as Bob Q. Jones living in such and such an address and wanted us to publicly spread the word about his bad behavior and ban him from signing up for any of our schools, then I would take a pass.

If the story as told stretches credulity to the breaking point, then I may not be willing to engage in the conversation under any pretense that I think it might be true. If the OPs story had ending with him sprinkling the parent with holy water causing the fiend to sprout bat wings and fly back to hell, I'm going to be open about my disbelief. Likewise if the storyteller has a history of telling unbelievable stories I will be less likely to give them the benefit of the doubt on a marginal case.

If I know the person telling the story well enough that I know their personal biases and they know me well enough to trust me when I point those out, then I may carefully (and privately) point out where I think they may not be recalling things accurately. If I knew that Headhunter had a tendency to get red in the face and sound belligerent when his judgment was challenged, then I might gently suggest "you know, sometimes you set people off without meaning to in these kinds of discussions. Do you think that might have happened here?"

But, I do believe these things don't happen in a vacuum. I think the OP probably didn't help the situation. The parent is, as you note below, also a big part of the problem. And the head instructor. As I said before, I don't know the exact formula, but all three shoulder some responsibility.

It certainly could be the case that all three were part of the problem. The OP might have left out crucial information showing how he or his instructor contributed to the confrontation. I don't see any reason to assume that this must be the case. Not every instance of bad behavior is the fault of all the people involved.

I can't be the only one here who read the original post and thought, "Huh... that is an odd sequence of events."

Unusual, but definitely not outside the bounds of believability. As I mentioned, I used to work in retail. There were multiple instances over the years where I was verbally abused or physically threatened by a customer even as I did my best to stay calm and reasonable. I don't buy the notion that I must have been partially at fault because "these things don't happen in a vacuum."

 

[Headhunter]

Well, we kind of have that issue with any discussion we have here. Just about any account that any of us here give about anything is probably filtered through our personal biases and could be outright lies for all most of the people reading could know. When we talk about our martial arts experiences and qualifications, we could be lying. If we mention a sick family member we could be engaging in Munchausen Syndrome by proxy. When we ask for feedback on how to handle a situation we've experienced, we might have twisted the facts to be completely unrecognizable to anyone who was actually there. Heck, everything I've ever posted on this forum could be a complete fabrication. (You could independently verify some of the details with some detective work, but not all of it.)

If we're going to have any actual conversations, though, we have to give each other some benefit of the doubt. I do generally assume there is some inherent bias in anyone's stories, even if they're doing their best to be completely honest, because our perceptions and memories are imperfect. I don't think there's much to be gained by pointing this out to people every time they tell me something that happened to them, though. For the sake of having a conversation, I will by default provisionally accept their version of events if I'm going to engage in a discussion.

There are exceptions, of course.

If some action is demanded of me in response to the story then I will require a higher burden of proof. If the OP had identified the problem parent as Bob Q. Jones living in such and such an address and wanted us to publicly spread the word about his bad behavior and ban him from signing up for any of our schools, then I would take a pass.

If the story as told stretches credulity to the breaking point, then I may not be willing to engage in the conversation under any pretense that I think it might be true. If the OPs story had ending with him sprinkling the parent with holy water causing the fiend to sprout bat wings and fly back to hell, I'm going to be open about my disbelief. Likewise if the storyteller has a history of telling unbelievable stories I will be less likely to give them the benefit of the doubt on a marginal case.

If I know the person telling the story well enough that I know their personal biases and they know me well enough to trust me when I point those out, then I may carefully (and privately) point out where I think they may not be recalling things accurately. If I knew that Headhunter had a tendency to get red in the face and sound belligerent when his judgment was challenged, then I might gently suggest "you know, sometimes you set people off without meaning to in these kinds of discussions. Do you think that might have happened here?"



It certainly could be the case that all three were part of the problem. The OP might have left out crucial information showing how he or his instructor contributed to the confrontation. I don't see any reason to assume that this must be the case. Not every instance of bad behavior is the fault of all the people involved.



Unusual, but definitely not outside the bounds of believability. As I mentioned, I used to work in retail. There were multiple instances over the years where I was verbally abused or physically threatened by a customer even as I did my best to stay calm and reasonable. I don't buy the notion that I must have been partially at fault because "these things don't happen in a vacuum."

Absolutely it's unusual to happen that's why I posted about it. If it was a weekly thing that happened every session I wouldn't bother posting it and it's the first instance I've ever seen in all my years in training and hey I posted that the next day after it happened now maybe the words I posted werent word for word exactly what happened but as far as I know it was and hey if people want to think I'm lying then well that's there choice I'm not going to spend time trying to convince them but at the end of the day you could say this about any experience that's posted on this forum and if you do that's up to them.

 

[jks9199]

Folks,
Let me intervene slightly here. It's worthwhile to remember that much of human communication is nonverbal, things like expressions and tone of voice. With text, we lose much of that, and emojis and smilies only go so far in mitigating that. Think about how many ways your significant other can say "Fine" that range from meaning "HELL YES!" to "Don't you even dare contemplate that...and your in the doghouse for having allowed the idea into your skull." Sure seems to me that perhaps there's been some misunderstood messages in this thread. Let's try to keep that in mind as we move forward, and maybe give each other the benefit of the doubt...

 

[Steve]

Absolutely it's unusual to happen that's why I posted about it. If it was a weekly thing that happened every session I wouldn't bother posting it and it's the first instance I've ever seen in all my years in training and hey I posted that the next day after it happened now maybe the words I posted werent word for word exactly what happened but as far as I know it was and hey if people want to think I'm lying then well that's there choice I'm not going to spend time trying to convince them but at the end of the day you could say this about any experience that's posted on this forum and if you do that's up to them.

So what exactly are you looking for in this thread? What's the actual question here? As I said to tony, the dad isn't here to tell his version, nor is the head instructor, So, we have your side and that's it. What are we trying to discuss?

 

[Midnight-shadow]

So what exactly are you looking for in this thread? What's the actual question here? As I said to tony, the dad isn't here to tell his version, nor is the head instructor, So, we have your side and that's it. What are we trying to discuss?

I don't know about anyone else but whenever I see a thread like this, I treat it as a purely hypothetical situation rather than getting stuck on whether it actually happened or not. So, in this case I look at the scenario as it is presented and then put myself in the OP's shoes, thinking about how I personally would react to this situation and what could have been done to prevent the confrontation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know about anyone else but whenever I see a thread like this, I treat it as a purely hypothetical situation rather than getting stuck on whether it actually happened or not. So, in this case I look at the scenario as it is presented and then put myself in the OP's shoes, thinking about how I personally would react to this situation and what could have been done to prevent the confrontation.

Agreed. Unless there is something that throws a big red flag, I just respond to what was posted. Like Tony, I keep in mind that there's a natural predilection to see things (and thus, report them) in our own favor, but I mostly respond to the situation as posted. If the situation didn't happen that way, I can't really respond to how it did happen (since I don't know that version), so treating it like a hypothetical is about as good as we can do most times.