PAK SAU .... The elbow or the wrist ?

[BPWT]

But against a straight punch down the center, he would definitely be parrying at the wrist area.

Certainly it can happen - parrying at the wrist area - and can be pulled off safely. However, I think that as KPM was saying, that wouldn't be the timing and distance management I would be looking for.

Assuming I am in Man/Wu, I ideally want to be moving in and want to deal with any incoming straight hand shot from the opponent when their strike has moved inside my Man Sau. I think a Pak Sau at their wrist would be engaging a little outside of the range I'd want to be in. Basically, I want the exchange to be closer.

 

[mook jong man]

Certainly it can happen - parrying at the wrist area - and can be pulled off safely. However, I think that as KPM was saying, that wouldn't be the timing and distance management I would be looking for.

Assuming I am in Man/Wu, I ideally want to be moving in and want to deal with any incoming straight hand shot from the opponent when their strike has moved inside my Man Sau. I think a Pak Sau at their wrist would be engaging a little outside of the range I'd want to be in. Basically, I want the exchange to be closer.

Oh absolutely , you don't want to just be standing there waiting for it to come.
You want to pounce straight in there and cut it off before it starts to build up power and momentum.

 

[KPM]

That would be because the dudes elbow is closer to the centerline , but if the guys wrist was on the centerline he would go for the wrist.
Circumstances change a little bit when breaking through a guard depending on the position of the persons arms.

.

I don't quit follow what you are saying about wrist vs. elbow being on the centerline? What I'm seeing in this video is that he is ending up Pak'ing on the mid-forearm area (or even right on the elbow a couple of times) because of his distance to the opponent.

It occurs to me that maybe you are talking about Pak'ing while moving in so that you initially may contact near the wrist, but the Pak is going to slide up the forearm as you move in? That I can agree with. ;-)

The other thing that occurs to me is that we are tending to be much too "Wing Chun centric" here. We are training to defend against a "generic" attacker, not a fellow Wing Chun guy. That's why I talk about doing the Pak to occupy center and deflect, regardless of where you contact his arm. If you ever really apply this, you are more likely to be Pak'ing a pseudo-boxer's cross or jab...so wrist vs. elbow on centerline seems kind of irrelevant in my mind.

 

[mook jong man]

I don't quit follow what you are saying about wrist vs. elbow being on the centerline? What I'm seeing in this video is that he is ending up Pak'ing on the mid-forearm area (or even right on the elbow a couple of times) because of his distance to the opponent.

It occurs to me that maybe you are talking about Pak'ing while moving in so that you initially may contact near the wrist, but the Pak is going to slide up the forearm as you move in? That I can agree with. ;-)

The other thing that occurs to me is that we are tending to be much too "Wing Chun centric" here. We are training to defend against a "generic" attacker, not a fellow Wing Chun guy. That's why I talk about doing the Pak to occupy center and deflect, regardless of where you contact his arm. If you ever really apply this, you are more likely to be Pak'ing a pseudo-boxer's cross or jab...so wrist vs. elbow on centerline seems kind of irrelevant in my mind.

We can agree that we want to take an economical straight path from our guard to the opponents face ok.
Whatever is in front of that direct path will be the contact point for our Pak Sau , whether it be the elbow , the wrist or somewhere in between , depending on how the opponent has positioned their hands.
Thats what I was talking about.

 

[mook jong man]

So we have established that in the case of an incoming straight punch , some lineages pak the wrist , others aim for the elbow and some aim for halfway.
As with most things there are pros and cons with either method.

The using Pak Sau against a punch issue has been pretty much exhausted and we seem to be getting into the area of entry techniques.
So if I may , why don't we turn the discussion to what entry techniques everyone uses in their various lineages.
Heres some we use in ours.
[video=youtube_share;uQKeq-c4gTM]http://youtu.be/uQKeq-c4gTM[/video]

 

[Argus]

We can agree that we want to take an economical straight path from our guard to the opponents face ok.
Whatever is in front of that direct path will be the contact point for our Pak Sau , whether it be the elbow , the wrist or somewhere in between , depending on how the opponent has positioned their hands.
Thats what I was talking about.

When you put it like that, I'm in complete agreement. I wonder if we're not all arguing the same thing in different words.

 

[mook jong man]

When you put it like that, I'm in complete agreement. I wonder if we're not all arguing the same thing in different words.

I have to admit I am not that great at expressing myself through words
I only went to high school I didn't have a university education , it's a lot easier to get the point across through direct physical action.

 

[Argus]

I have to admit I am not that great at expressing myself through words
I only went to high school I didn't have a university education , it's a lot easier to get the point across through direct physical action.

In my experience, words are tricky regardless of education or language you speak. We humans have the amazing ability to say the same thing in different ways and argue about it

We all have different perceptions, experiences, and assumptions, and this colors our definition of certain words and ideas, and how we interpret them, so it's kind of natural I suppose. That's one of the reasons why physical medium is always a better way to explain things in Martial Arts.

 

[J W]

Exactly. I think you summed it up better than I did. Where you end up depends on your distance, angle, and facing to the opponent. If the elbow isn't on the centerline, relative to me, then there's no sense in pressing it because I'll just be spread off the center. If the wrist is over the center, there's no sense in intercepting it because I'll just open up my own center. It's all context. Where you intercept is where you intercept. As long as you intercept somewhere along the centerline you're good.

We're on the same page. If the preferred target (be it wrist or elbow) is off the centerline, then it would just be chasing hands to try and hit it. Better to pak in the center and then deal with the situation as it is once you've made contact.

In the punch/pak sao drill (Pak Da drill) the purpose is to not only deflect his punch, but to occupy the center.

Agreed. I'd go a bit further and say that occupying the center is the main purpose; deflecting the punch is simply the outcome.

If you were my student and doing as you describe, I would tell you and your partner that you are standing too far apart. If you can extend your arm with a Pak Sao while he is fully extending his arm with a punch....and you are so far away that you can only contact his wrist, then you are too far away and his punch was never really a threat.

In the Pak Sao exercise, as we play it, one partner fully extends the punch, and the other then places the pak on the centerline, making contact near the wrist. Both partners maintain YGKYM and facing during the exercise, so you're right, the punch never comes anywhere close to being a threat. The exercise is used to introduce the student to the concept of centerline, and isn't an application drill (which is a separate conversation altogether).

We can agree that we want to take an economical straight path from our guard to the opponents face ok.
Whatever is in front of that direct path will be the contact point for our Pak Sau , whether it be the elbow , the wrist or somewhere in between , depending on how the opponent has positioned their hands.
Thats what I was talking about.

So we don't pak the wrist or the elbow, but instead engage on centerline? This I can agree with.

 

[mook jong man]

So we don't pak the wrist or the elbow, but instead engage on centerline? This I can agree with.

Yes that is correct.

 

[Eric_H]

So I'm a bit late to this party, but regarding the original question of wrist or elbow, the answer is (as always): it depends.

The things that influence my strategy are, the structure of the opponent's arm, my facing, whether we are already bridged, using the inner/outer hand etc etc.

Somewhere someone asked directly if nose to nose against a WC punch: I'd attempt to contact nearer to the elbow, using bride tracing ability (called chi kiu in my type of WC) to end up at a point where I have bridge control on center. Often times when nose to nose, this is going to run to the wrist to bleed the energy out (loi lau) and then settle on the forearm for forward energy (hoi sung).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We can agree that we want to take an economical straight path from our guard to the opponents face ok.
Whatever is in front of that direct path will be the contact point for our Pak Sau , whether it be the elbow , the wrist or somewhere in between , depending on how the opponent has positioned their hands.
Thats what I was talking about.

I think this approach is very risky. We all know that in order to control

- a snake, you will need to control 7 inches away from it's head. If you control it's tail, it's head can turn and bite you.
- an arm, you will need to control that elbow joint. If you control the wrist, his elbow will turn and attack you.

Even if the snake tail is in front of your direct path, you still should not attack it's tail. You should attack it's 7 inches spot instead. So the "direct path" guideline is important. But the "correct contact point" guideline can be more important because it concerns with your own safety.

 

[mook jong man]

I think this approach is very risky. We all know that in order to control

- a snake, you will need to control 7 inches away from it's head. If you control it's tail, it's head can turn and bite you.
- an arm, you will need to control that elbow joint. If you control the wrist, his elbow will turn and attack you.

Even if the snake tail is in front of your direct path, you still should not attack it's tail. You should attack it's 7 inches spot instead. So the "direct path" guideline is important. But the "correct contact point" guideline can be more important because it concerns with your own safety.

It is one of the major principles of Wing Chun , that of directness.
We are not talking about holding onto someone's arm here , or smashing the arm aside in a large lateral movement.

We are talking about creating a slight momentary gap to let our punch through , the whole thing takes a nano second.

 

[yak sao]

It is one of the major principles of Wing Chun , that of directness.
We are not talking about holding onto someone's arm here , or smashing the arm aside in a large lateral movement.

We are talking about creating a slight momentary gap to let our punch through , the whole thing takes a nano second.

This is what I was taught. My si-fu used the analogy of an elevator door closing and you are opening it just enough to squeeze through.

 

[KPM]

It is one of the major principles of Wing Chun , that of directness.
We are not talking about holding onto someone's arm here , or smashing the arm aside in a large lateral movement.

We are talking about creating a slight momentary gap to let our punch through , the whole thing takes a nano second.

I see what you are saying and agree to some extent. But I like to think about another of the major principles of Wing Chun ...... to "control while hitting." I know what you are getting at, but to say this is "a slight momentary gap", that only takes a nano second almost sounds like a boxer's quick jab. Like you're just flicking in a quick single punch. It can be quick, but it should also be moving in and disrupting the opponent's balance in order to control and lead into a follow up that is going to finish the opponent. So I agree with John that it could be a bit risky if you are too far out on the opponent's arm. First, at this range you may not be close enough to land your own punch! Second, if you are giving him some force with your Pak you are also giving him the opportunity to bend at the elbow as we have discussed before. Third, if you aren't using much force and this is just a quick motion that doesn't move the opponent at all or compromise his ability to respond, then if you don't take him out with that first punch (which may be at too far a distance to begin with) then he is going to keep coming!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It is one of the major principles of Wing Chun , that of directness.
We are not talking about holding onto someone's arm here , or smashing the arm aside in a large lateral movement.

We are talking about creating a slight momentary gap to let our punch through , the whole thing takes a nano second.

Here we assume that you are using your WC Pak Shou to deal with someone's punch who may be from other MA system.

Do you agree that if you and your opponent have the same speed, and if

- he throws a punch, and
- you parry,

it will be easier for him to change his punch into ... than for you to parry his punch and ...?

Your wrist parry may help your opponent's "punch" to change into an "elbow strike" as shown in the following clip. The whole thing could also take just a nano second. You may be fast but your opponent can be faster if you agree with my previous assumption. Also if your opponent has trained that

- punch,
- parry the parry, and
- elbow strike

combo through his partner drill and solo form training everyday, make that attack combo as his bread and butter moves, he may have some speed advantage over you.

Also in the following clip, your opponent's left hand is ready to "parry your Pak Shou" and then ... That mean he is expecting and waiting for your Pak Shou.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

why don't we turn the discussion to what entry techniques everyone uses in their various lineages?

The following combo is one of my favor "entry strategies".

1. My left back hand parry down my opponent's leading right arm.
2. I then throw a fast right punch at his face (a jab with only 30% committed force but with 100% speed - it's a fake set up punch).
3. When my opponent uses his left Pak Shou to parry at my right punch,
4. Before his left hand can touch my right arm, I'll pull my right hand back (just enough distance to let his left Pak Shou to pass and miss my punch).
5. I then punch my right arm back the same way at his face (but from the "other" side of his left Pak Shou).

 

[Argus]

Here we assume that you are using your WC Pak Shou to deal with someone's punch who may be from other MA system.

Do you agree that if you and your opponent have the same speed, and if

- he throws a punch, and
- you parry,

it will be easier for him to change his punch into ... than for you to parry his punch and ...?

Your wrist parry may help your opponent's "punch" to change into an "elbow strike" as shown in the following clip.

You're right in that, if you parry the wrist over the centerline, it will be easy for the opponent to change into an elbow strike. However, if you occupy the centerline and don't overcommit with your parry, your opponent will not be in a good position to deliver an elbow strike. Moreover, the elbow is a very close-range weapon. The punch alone, extended, will prevent an elbow strike from landing so long as it is not deflected.

It's all context. Position and energy is everything. That's the problem with making "if this then that" generalizations.

 

[mook jong man]

I see what you are saying and agree to some extent. But I like to think about another of the major principles of Wing Chun ...... to "control while hitting." I know what you are getting at, but to say this is "a slight momentary gap", that only takes a nano second almost sounds like a boxer's quick jab. Like you're just flicking in a quick single punch. It can be quick, but it should also be moving in and disrupting the opponent's balance in order to control and lead into a follow up that is going to finish the opponent. So I agree with John that it could be a bit risky if you are too far out on the opponent's arm. First, at this range you may not be close enough to land your own punch! Second, if you are giving him some force with your Pak you are also giving him the opportunity to bend at the elbow as we have discussed before. Third, if you aren't using much force and this is just a quick motion that doesn't move the opponent at all or compromise his ability to respond, then if you don't take him out with that first punch (which may be at too far a distance to begin with) then he is going to keep coming!

You should definitely be moving your body mass in as fast as you can to generate force in your strike and hit him.
It does not have to be one punch , once the gap is opened up you just run him over with chain punches , one of the reasons it is important to have a nice economical Pak Sau is so that the Pak hand can be quickly cycled back into punching again.

 

[mook jong man]

The following combo is one of my favor "entry strategies".

1. My left back hand parry down my opponent's leading right arm.
2. I then throw a fast right punch at his face (a jab with only 30% committed force but with 100% speed - it's a fake set up punch).
3. When my opponent uses his left Pak Shou to parry at my right punch,
4. Before his left hand can touch my right arm, I'll pull my right hand back (just enough distance to let his left Pak Shou to pass and miss my punch).
5. I then punch my right arm back the same way at his face (but from the "other" side of his left Pak Shou).

Videos , if you got em mate.
Bit easier than trying to visualise stuff in my head.