Original Koryo

[andyjeffries]

I've heard a lot of talk about there being an earlier version of Koryo before the current Kukkiwon one. Has anyone got a link to a video of it or a text move-by-move description with pictures?

Just wondering what it looks like and how it differs, as I don't know anyone personally that knows it.

 

[dancingalone]

A few versions have been posted before, but I don't see them at the moment, but I was able to get Youtube to come up with this:

[yt]-wAJi6f8fZY[/yt]

 

[andyjeffries]

A few versions have been posted before, but I don't see them at the moment, but I was able to get Youtube to come up with this

Thanks for that mate, I appreciate it. Very odd looking (the reason I dislike Jitae is because it's not symmetrical/repeating and this old Koryo reminds me Jitae). Shame, I'd hoped it would be a pattern I liked so I could learn it, but I think I'll just leave it in the history books.

As an aside, while looking for it - I found an, ahem, interesting interpretation of the current Koryo (sorry, couldn't get the yt tag to work).

 

[DMcHenry]

GM Kim Pyung-Soo published an article way back in either Black Belt or Karate Illistrated (can't remember) documenting that form. I have a copy of it at home. The above video looks correct.

I think after the change to the second version, originally the opening move had the hands touching in an open triangle (similar to Kong Sang Koon opening) but now has both hands open facing each other.

 

[dancingalone]

Thanks for that mate, I appreciate it. Very odd looking (the reason I dislike Jitae is because it's not symmetrical/repeating and this old Koryo reminds me Jitae). Shame, I'd hoped it would be a pattern I liked so I could learn it, but I think I'll just leave it in the history books.

Symmetry in forms is overrated IMO. I practice a few kata that repeat in threes, so one side is naturally unbalanced.

 

[andyjeffries]

Symmetry in forms is overrated IMO. I practice a few kata that repeat in threes, so one side is naturally unbalanced.

I agree that asymetrical forms may stress the memory more, but after a few repetitions for a reasonable dan taekwondoin memory for forms shouldn't be an issue. I personally prefer the fact that in most of the forms you practice the movements equally on both sides.

Everyone has a naturally preferred side, but I'm finding more and more that for basic techniques (those found in forms) I actually don't care which side I have to use.

 

[dancingalone]

I agree that asymetrical forms may stress the memory more, but after a few repetitions for a reasonable dan taekwondoin memory for forms shouldn't be an issue. I personally prefer the fact that in most of the forms you practice the movements equally on both sides.

Everyone has a naturally preferred side, but I'm finding more and more that for basic techniques (those found in forms) I actually don't care which side I have to use.

It's not necessarily for memory which forms are designed to be unbalanced. To me, that would be one of the least important reasons really. The unbalance can be a hint or clue towards the 'correct' or 'better' usage for a specific side and/or vector. But this is really esoteric stuff so I'll stop now.

 

[andyjeffries]

It's not necessarily for memory which forms are designed to be unbalanced. To me, that would be one of the least important reasons really. The unbalance can be a hint or clue towards the 'correct' or 'better' usage for a specific side and/or vector. But this is really esoteric stuff so I'll stop now.

No, please don't stop. Can you give some specific examples to help me grasp what you're saying. It might help me make sense of Jitae, then learn to like it

 

[DMcHenry]

Some forms, such as Rohai (Lohai) perform repeated moves to one side only (three times).

 

[dancingalone]

I started to write a long post, but I realized 2 paragraphs in that it was unintelligible.

Let me give a simple example with intentional isolated circumstances. If I am facing you with my right foot forward matched to your own stance and I wanted to pull you forward and into the side in order to expose some striking area for me, which would be better? A right hand to right hand pull towards my right side? A right hand hand grab to your left side to pull towards my right side? Right hand to right hand to left side?

The first would probably be my preference under this rather bland scenario, assuming we are both right handed (a likely guess), and the ending position would have you exposed to my dominant side while I myself am protected by my presentation in relation to you.

Kata can be full of little lessons as these, augmented such as it by the actual technique displayed in the motion practiced. Kata that contain unbalanced actions towards one side
do so for good reason for my perspective, so long as you understand that they were generally designed for a right-handed centric audience. And this last bit has even more room for thought when you start introducing the practice of weapons, including bladed ones, into the equation.

 

[puunui]

Boxers, fencers, swordsmen, even soldiers firing rifles tend to do one side only. Doing both sides equally is more for exercise or health related benefits and not for fighting or self defense or even tournament sparring.

 

[Metal]

Since there's finally a really awesome version of the original Koryo Poomsae on YouTube I decided to post in this old thread again:

But does anybody have any detailed info on the timeline of the creation of the Kukkiwon Poomsae?

This is what I found online a few years ago:

1965 Formation of the KTA Poomse committee

30.11.1967 The KTA Kwans start practising the Palgwe and Yudanja Poomse

The Palgwe and Yudanja Poomse were created by:
Kwak Kun Sik (Chung Do Kwan, Captain at the Korean Military Academy),
Lee Yong Sup (Song Mu Kwan), Lee Kyo Yun (Han Mu Kwan), Park Hae Man (Chung Do
Kwan) Hyoun Jong Myun (Oh Do Kwan) and Kim Soon Bae (Chang Mu Kwan).

The Taegeuk Poomse were created later. The following people joined the Poomse Committe in order to help creating the Taegeuk Poomsae.

Bae Young Ki (Ji Do Kwan) and Han Yong Tae (Mu Do Kwan).The creation was supervised by Lee Chong Woo.

The Taegeuk Poomse were revised by Park Hae Man of the Chung Do Kwan Dojang in
Yong San within 4 days in 1969.

Chang Soo was ordered to take note of the Poomsae in order to publish a KTA Poomsae book, but unfortunately a few errors had slipped in so that an inaccurate Poomsae book was published in 1972.

Dieses führte zum Ärger aller Beteiligten zu einem sehr fehlerhaften Buch über die Poomse-Formen, das 1972 gedruckt wurde.

The first Taekwondo Poomsae book published in Korean (Taekwondo Kyobon) contained the following:

25 Poomse ( 8 Palgwe, 8 Taeguk und 9 Yudanja Poomse).
.

Source: German Taekwondo Master Hans Jürgen Sobota, based upon memories of German Taekwondo Master Rudi Grasser


Can anybody verify/confirm?

Was the Koryo Poomse altered when the Taegeuk Poomsae were introduced?

 

[MAist25]

That version is different than the one originally created by the KTA. Very similar, but not exact. The original Koryo poomsae was practiced as the 1st Dan poomsae, after one had learned the 8 palgwe poomsae. When the Taegeuk poomsae were created they also replaced Koryo poomsae to the one you see still being practiced in mainstream TKD dojang today. The rest of the black belt poomsae remained the same albeit some minor alterations.

 

[TrueJim]

Here's another reference for those who are interested: Original Koryo - Taekwondo Wiki

 

[TrueJim]

Since there's finally a really awesome version of the original Koryo Poomsae on YouTube I decided to post in this old thread again:

But does anybody have any detailed info on the timeline of the creation of the Kukkiwon Poomsae?

This is what I found online a few years ago:

Can anybody verify/confirm?

Was the Koryo Poomse altered when the Taegeuk Poomsae were introduced?

I do like that video better than the one on the taekwondo wiki. I've replaced the video on the wikie with the one you provided. Much better performance.

I recall reading once that Koryo was replaced at the same time as when the Taegeuk Poomsae were introduced. I'm working from memory, but I recall reading that Old Koryo was deemed too simplistic...the committee wanted Koryo to be a bit more complex.

FYI, there's also this: http://www.amazon.com/Taekwondo-Black-Belt-Koryo-Original/dp/B00FZ3UMLE

 

[MAist25]

^^^ The version Metal posted is not correct, the one that was on the wikia was not very good, but it was at least correct. I would stick with that one.

 

[TrueJim]

^^^ The version Metal posted is not correct, the one that was on the wikia was not very good, but it was at least correct. I would stick with that one.

Roger that. If anybody finds a good + correct one, please pass it along!

 

[chrispillertkd]

^^^ The version Metal posted is not correct, the one that was on the wikia was not very good, but it was at least correct. I would stick with that one.

Can you give me an overview of the errors that were in the video Metal posted? I viewed both but for some reason the video on the wiki was "jumpy" and seemed to be pausing and then skipping forward at times (could be my browser). Anyway, I was not able to see an discernable differences between the two versions as far as techniques go.

Thanks.

Pax,

Chris

 

[MAist25]

Can you give me an overview of the errors that were in the video Metal posted? I viewed both but for some reason the video on the wiki was "jumpy" and seemed to be pausing and then skipping forward at times (could be my browser). Anyway, I was not able to see an discernable differences between the two versions as far as techniques go.

Thanks.

Pax,

Chris

Not too bad, just a few errors. The first tecnhique of the form should be a double knife hand block, with the front hand slightly more extended than usually executed, she does a single knife hand block. After she does her first turn and executes the knee strike, it should be followed by a low X block in a cross stance. She does some sort of spread block. After she does her next turn into the backfist strike, it should be followed with a high knife hand block, she does a middle knifehand block. And lastly, after her jumping front kick, she punches with her right hand first, then her left. The correct way to do it is to punch with your left hand first, then your right hand. Other than those few things, it was a very well done poomsae in my opinion.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Thanks so much. I learned the new version of Koryo and a few of the Taeguk poomsae when I was training at a KKW style club in college and was interested to learn there had been an earlier version of Koryo. The lady who performs in the video in question is very good, IMO. I wonder what accounts for the technical differences?

Pax,

Chris