On Self "Training" In Martial Arts

[skribs]

I like your post.
Years ago I train with excellent teachers for a number of years.
I have alot of old books and the superfoot video were help, but I still really was not making near the progress I wanted until I found a good teacher.

There is an old saying " It is better to look for a good teacher for ten years than train for ten years with a bad teacher.

I truly believe that old saying.











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You have to take him in context, though. He refuses to train under a teacher at all, because he thinks he knows better than the teachers.

He's taken a few months of classes.

 

[Tez3]

He might. I don't know. That I skins of my whole thing. What work is what works. Not what we think works.

I think the chances of a self taught egotist who knows better than all instructors including those on videos and books etc. who can eloquently debunk all knowledge of martial arts ...well no he can't actually..... in favour of his own 'brand' is going to fair poorly against anyone who can fight trained or untrained. The sheer weight of ignorance will hold him down.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

You can convince yourself you are a boxer. But the minute you step into a ring with a TRAINED boxer, all the faults in your training will be exposed

If you do what is called boxing, you would technically be a boxer, quality doesnt matter to that. It seems to be a trend that people who are "street experienced" just call themselves fighters if they call themselves anything. But thats more of a word argument anyway.


Sports wise, if you go into a comeptition most people in most of them would have had some degree of coaching before the fact, so you are essentially entering with a disadvantage. That would cover the SPORT aspect of this and is just the reality of competitions etc. And you would be stupid to not acknowledge such a fact. But not all coaches are the same, some might just be terrible and you might have been better off doing nothing and subjecting youself to a beatdown until you got KO'ed. (never do that unless they pay you a decent sum also, especially if you need to pay for health insurance) That is also just a fact for this area.

You would have a much better time if you were only intrested in "self defence", as then the bulk of people in that arena wouldnt be formally trained. Unless of course you live in area where it is common, but then odds are you would be formally trained to some degree as well, or be able to find somewhere or someone. And for this point, would said person be able to get out of said rear naked choke? especially if you sucessfully did it to your training partner(s) X amount of times. Or would said rear naked choke be valid in what you are into it for? why do that when you could have just clubbed them with your fists? Fight how you know after all.

But, i did all ready admit to the point some things are harder to learn than others. Learning is a individualised thing though. If you do self study the quality would vary on how well you can pick something up from the media you can access and the quality of it. (media for sake of argument includes sparring etc)


A potential issue here is, this thread isnt specfically about one particular type, its not restricted to armed or unarmed, sport or non sport or anything inbetween or parell to them. Obviously, down to my intrests my area is more self defence and weapons so i may think of said situations before i think of a sport situation. To which a more sport centric person would think of first. Example: When i wrote some skills are easier to learn than others, the contrast of spears and swords came to my mind. Unlike said example of unarmed fighting and in boxing. Just thought that was worth relaying, not a counter point to anything.

There was no secret point. Rather than working with conjecture it will be more effective to work with facts.

So can this be done?

Do it and find out.

Im fully aware of said point and got it. The reply i got was indiciating i did not get it, which may or may not have alluded to some apprantly concealed point. (to which only the post maker could relay was the case with 100% accuracy)

And i did second it, you cant argue with facts. If you enter a boxing competiion (for argument sake) and win the match, you clearly are doing something right, or they are doing something wrong. The latter doesnt matter so much as its a factor in fighting, a win is a win afterall.

 

[skribs]

You would have a much better time if you were only intrested in "self defence", as then the bulk of people in that arena wouldnt be formally trained. Unless of course you live in area where it is common, but then odds are you would be formally trained to some degree as well, or be able to find somewhere or someone. And for this point, would said person be able to get out of said rear naked choke? especially if you sucessfully did it to your training partner(s) X amount of times. Or would said rear naked choke be valid in what you are into it for? why do that when you could have just clubbed them with your fists? Fight how you know after all.

You apply a rear-naked choke. It doesn't actually choke them out, because you don't know how to actually do it. What do you do then?

You try to club them with your fists. But your punches don't land, because they just back away from your punches or keep their guard up, and you don't know how to draw out their guard or any strategy and footwork to make your punches land. What do you do then?

If you do what is called boxing, you would technically be a boxer, quality doesnt matter to that. It seems to be a trend that people who are "street experienced" just call themselves fighters if they call themselves anything. But thats more of a word argument anyway.

If you self-train as a boxer and call yourself a boxer, you're going to piss off the entire boxing community. Especially if you start trying to train others or post videos and articles on how to box, when you don't have a clue. Now you're hurting the reputation of the art.

Unfortunately, I was wrong in my hopes earlier in the thread. I said I hoped this was you turning the corner. But it's just become another thread where you present your opinion, which is very very wrong, and then die on the hill defending it. Why are you even here? Why even ask these questions? You want validation? Then do something worth validating. Go train. Get experience. Come back to us and talk to us as a peer. Suck up your ego and go take some classes. You'll learn a lot more than you will here. Especially since you don't listen to anyone here and just argue with everyone who says you're wrong. Which happens all the time, because you know nothing of actual martial arts.

 

[skribs]

I been self training since 2005,. And I have made tremendous advancements, but there does come a point where you have to have a partner,

How do you know you've made tremendous advancements? What was your history before self training? What arts are you self-training in?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

When I was a teenager I wanted to find the best school. Around my area in Texas, I tried American freestyle karate, Jeet kune do, Chinese kempo,/ whalum Kung Fu, jook lum southern praying mantis, I never found a school I wanted to commit to. So by age 28 I decided to found my own Kung Fu system 15 years later, I have made alot of progress

How do you know you've made progress though? Do you compete somewhere or spar in other schools?

 

[skribs]

No I have not competed, my progress is based on me meeting my goals

What goals? This is all nebulous.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I been self training since 2005,. And I have made tremendous advancements, but there does come a point where you have to have a partner,

Clarification, i do belive you need at minimum a sparring partner to self study. anything else seems optional/a luxury. Unless you just want to do forms to keep active then you dont need one or dont want it for actually fighting anyone. You do just need a human being to be there to act as resistance and to try things on.

 

[jobo]

RAT
this is just nonsense, there are lots and lots of people who can hold up there end of a fight with out ever having taken a class

if your one of them you don really need any training to deal with the cut and thrust of every day life, if thats not you, or you make a habit of getting into fights and loosing then you need instruction

saying that there are competent fighter who are self instructed doesn't help you if you dont have their attribute, dedication and habit of getting into fights as practice

 

[Deleted member 39746]

RAT
this is just nonsense, there are lots and lots of people who can hold up there end of a fight with out ever having taken a class

if your one of them you don really need any training to deal with the cut and thrust of every day life, if thats not you, or you make a habit of getting into fights and loosing then you need instruction

saying that there are competent fighter who are self instructed doesn't help you if you dont have their attribute, dedication and habit of getting into fights as practice

I dont see what is nonsensical about it? going to have to be a tad bit more spefic.


There are people who can do that. The disucssion in question is about self study and pros and cons of it and why it gets a defacto bad reputation. Also, instruction for the last criteria in the sentence is the wrong word for it.


And for the last sentence, see above about the discussion being about pros and cons to said training methodology.


I dont fully disagree or agree with any of the points made, i just dont see the relevency of some. Like i dont recall making statements to oppose them?

 

[Headhunter]

When I was a teenager I wanted to find the best school. Around my area in Texas, I tried American freestyle karate, Jeet kune do, Chinese kempo,/ whalum Kung Fu, jook lum southern praying mantis, I never found a school I wanted to commit to. So by age 28 I decided to found my own Kung Fu system 15 years later, I have made alot of progress

Ah....okay.

You should go find a gym to spar to see how much progress you've made

 

[Headhunter]

I dont see what is nonsensical about it? going to have to be a tad bit more spefic.


There are people who can do that. The disucssion in question is about self study and pros and cons of it and why it gets a defacto bad reputation. Also, instruction for the last criteria in the sentence is the wrong word for it.


And for the last sentence, see above about the discussion being about pros and cons to said training methodology.


I dont fully disagree or agree with any of the points made, i just dont see the relevency of some. Like i dont recall making statements to oppose them?

The reason it gets a bad reputation is because it's a bad idea and doesn't do much for you at all

 

[jobo]

I dont see what is nonsensical about it? going to have to be a tad bit more spefic.


There are people who can do that. The disucssion in question is about self study and pros and cons of it and why it gets a defacto bad reputation. Also, instruction for the last criteria in the sentence is the wrong word for it.


And for the last sentence, see above about the discussion being about pros and cons to said training methodology.


I dont fully disagree or agree with any of the points made, i just dont see the relevency of some. Like i dont recall making statements to oppose them?

il simplify it for you, if you can fight and beat all or even most comers you dont need instruction, if you cant you do, thats if you want to beat most comers

 

[Deleted member 39746]

il simplify it for you, if you can fight and beat all or even most comers you dont need instruction, if you cant you do, thats if you want to beat most comers

And this thread comes it at the instruction part. Pros and cons of self study and if it would work in some situations etc.

 

[skribs]

I dont see what is nonsensical about it? going to have to be a tad bit more spefic.


There are people who can do that. The disucssion in question is about self study and pros and cons of it and why it gets a defacto bad reputation. Also, instruction for the last criteria in the sentence is the wrong word for it.


And for the last sentence, see above about the discussion being about pros and cons to said training methodology.


I dont fully disagree or agree with any of the points made, i just dont see the relevency of some. Like i dont recall making statements to oppose them?

There are no pros to self-training over taking a class. It's nothing but cons. Self-training is what you do to supplement your class training, or to maintain your skills. The cons are:

• No direction from an instructor on what to work on
• No curriculum to tell you how to broaden or focus your training
• No feedback from an instructor on the mistakes you're making in your technique during drills
• No pressure-tested sparring partner with which to develop the underlying skills of timing, controlling distance, aim, and strategy
• No pressure-tested sparring partner with which to get feedback on what works and what doesn't
• No accountability or commitment to the training
• No validation of your progress other than self-assessment
• No understanding of how to develop skills with regards to safety
• No feedback from an instructor on why your techniques fail in sparring

In order to be successful in self-training, you would have to have these qualities:

1. Self-motivated and able to keep yourself on a training schedule
2. Able to identify the smallest details in what your body is doing, and pay attention to those details in the book or video you are watching and learn from them
3. Able to find a friend or group of friends who meet the criteria in #1 and #2 that you can have competent training partners
4. Able to go to competitions that are appropriate for the skills you are testing and succeed in those competitions
5. That when you answer these questions about yourself, you're actually correct. If you think you can identify those details, but you can't, then you're not going to get much out of self-training.

 

[skribs]

There are no pros to self-training over taking a class. It's nothing but cons. Self-training is what you do to supplement your class training, or to maintain your skills. The cons are:

• No direction from an instructor on what to work on
• No curriculum to tell you how to broaden or focus your training
• No feedback from an instructor on the mistakes you're making in your technique during drills
• No pressure-tested sparring partner with which to develop the underlying skills of timing, controlling distance, aim, and strategy
• No pressure-tested sparring partner with which to get feedback on what works and what doesn't
• No accountability or commitment to the training
• No validation of your progress other than self-assessment
• No understanding of how to develop skills with regards to safety
• No feedback from an instructor on why your techniques fail in sparring

In order to be successful in self-training, you would have to have these qualities:

1. Self-motivated and able to keep yourself on a training schedule
2. Able to identify the smallest details in what your body is doing, and pay attention to those details in the book or video you are watching and learn from them
3. Able to find a friend or group of friends who meet the criteria in #1 and #2 that you can have competent training partners
4. Able to go to competitions that are appropriate for the skills you are testing and succeed in those competitions
5. That when you answer these questions about yourself, you're actually correct. If you think you can identify those details, but you can't, then you're not going to get much out of self-training.

One thing I forgot to add. Those things that would make you successful in self-training? They're not exclusive to self-training, and you'd still get more out of going to class. If you are self-motivated you will stay committed to a class. If you can identify those details, it's more important seeing them live than repeated on a video, or listening to others in your class get corrected. It's the best way to find a group of friends that you can spar with, or to hear about appropriate tournaments. Even better, those friends don't have to meet criteria #1 and #2, because there will always be other people to spar with or give them feedback. And you don't need to worry about #5, because even if your self-assessment is poor, your instructor will provide that assessment.

 

[jobo]

And this thread comes it at the instruction part. Pros and cons of self study and if it would work in some situations etc.

i dont know how else to explain to you, go to a rough pub, pick a fight with the biggest guy in there, if you beat him up yourself study is working, if you dont you may need to improved both your fitness and technique, the best way of doing that is to seek instruction

 

[frank raud]

You would have a much better time if you were only intrested in "self defence", as then the bulk of people in that arena wouldnt be formally trained.

Again, the problem with self training for self defense, is the lack of input from other, more experienced people. The bulk of people in that arena wouldn't be formally trained. Perhaps, next time I spill Phil from accounting's Appletini at the office Christmas party, I can be confident I can handle his wrath with the knowledge I gained from Ashida Kim's Big Book of Ninja Knowledge. Unfortunately, within that bulk of people without formal training will be hockey players, American football and Rugby players. Can any of them perform Pinan kata? No. Are any of them capable of physical violence at a level to which you are incapable of responding? Who do you think would be more inclined to violence if you spilled their drink, Phil from accounting, or Biff, who works on the floor of a steel mill, and plays rugby on the weekend?

The logic of maybe the coach is not good, so I'd be better training myself in something I don't know anything about is brilliant. Have you read Phil Elmore's classic, Short Hand, Empty Hand? In it, our fearless hero posits that as he is not an expert, he is the perfect teacher for those less knowledgeable then him. His lack of skills and in depth understanding will make him a better instructor to the masses, as it is not necessary to "know" how to punch correctly, you should just do it. Damage to your hand and wrist that could have been avoided? Incidental.

I am familiar with the challenge of not having the art you are interested in being available near to you. I regularly attend seminars where students have travelled from other countries and continents to attend. Sometimes you need to travel if you absolutely must train in a style that is not available to you.

 

[skribs]

Again, the problem with self training for self defense, is the lack of input from other, more experienced people. The bulk of people in that arena wouldn't be formally trained. Perhaps, next time I spill Phil from accounting's Appletini at the office Christmas party, I can be confident I can handle his wrath with the knowledge I gained from Ashida Kim's Big Book of Ninja Knowledge. Unfortunately, within that bulk of people without formal training will be hockey players, American football and Rugby players. Can any of them perform Pinan kata? No. Are any of them capable of physical violence at a level to which you are incapable of responding? Who do you think would be more inclined to violence if you spilled their drink, Phil from accounting, or Biff, who works on the floor of a steel mill, and plays rugby on the weekend?

The logic of maybe the coach is not good, so I'd be better training myself in something I don't know anything about is brilliant. Have you read Phil Elmore's classic, Short Hand, Empty Hand? In it, our fearless hero posits that as he is not an expert, he is the perfect teacher for those less knowledgeable then him. His lack of skills and in depth understanding will make him a better instructor to the masses, as it is not necessary to "know" how to punch correctly, you should just do it. Damage to your hand and wrist that could have been avoided? Incidental.

I am familiar with the challenge of not having the art you are interested in being available near to you. I regularly attend seminars where students have travelled from other countries and continents to attend. Sometimes you need to travel if you absolutely must train in a style that is not available to you.

There's also a difference between not training a style that's not available (and thus training something else), vs. not training under an instructor at all.

Although I can kind of see the point about someone of mediocre knowledge being a better instructor. People with a lot of knowledge often forget the details that someone completely uninitiated won't know. I've had a few conversations with my guitar instructor where I will ask him a question, and he'll have to play a lick and pay attention to what he's doing before he can answer. It's something that he does on muscle memory and he's forgotten how he does it.

If you watch the show The Big Bang Theory, it's like Sheldon trying to teach Penny physics. He's one of the most brilliant scientists on the planet (in the show), and she's a waitress with barely any college education. He doesn't know how to talk to her for much of the show's run, because he just assumes she will understand the obscure scientific knowledge that he's known his whole life.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Again, the problem with self training for self defense, is the lack of input from other, more experienced people. The bulk of people in that arena wouldn't be formally trained. Perhaps, next time I spill Phil from accounting's Appletini at the office Christmas party, I can be confident I can handle his wrath with the knowledge I gained from Ashida Kim's Big Book of Ninja Knowledge. Unfortunately, within that bulk of people without formal training will be hockey players, American football and Rugby players. Can any of them perform Pinan kata? No. Are any of them capable of physical violence at a level to which you are incapable of responding? Who do you think would be more inclined to violence if you spilled their drink, Phil from accounting, or Biff, who works on the floor of a steel mill, and plays rugby on the weekend?

Knocking off experience here, you can get input from other people via sparring. Not knocking off experience, nothing says you cant contact people and send them sparring videos etc.

And nothing says you would be able to handle phil, from accountings wrath if you split said drink with formal training. He could for all intents and purposes fold you like a chair.


There is a scale in this, i am not proposing you go to the extreme end of start from scratch, as the internet exists and most people have access to it. So they can get videos, text, pictures what have you from that on how to do various things, they could do what i stated above relay with a instructor or somone else via the internet with sparring videos etc ontop of that.



We can agree on several things though? If you just want to learn kata you can do that without face to face instruction, if you have no intrest in fighting somone you can do that without sparring and without face to face instruction and if you want to fight somone you need at least a sparring partner and some form of information to go off.