Oldest Karate Kata from China
- Thread starter Xue Sheng
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isshinryuronin53 53
Senior Master
Yes, seisan kata is acknowledged to be the oldest of the Okinawan kata, dating back to about 1800, and the Chinese versions are more complex. When Jesse says he found the guy who knows the original version it should be taken with a grain of salt since no one really knows what that looked like - could be close, though.
The kata was brought back to Okinawa by several masters who studied in China. Since it arrived via multiple streams it is found in most styles. That they learned the kata from various teachers means slightly different versions were originally learned. It also means, IMO, that it was a widespread form, inferring it was an old form even in China, existing there in the 1700's.
As seen in both clips, especially the second one, the style performed looks more like karate than most kung fu - harder, more linear and with some chinkuchi. It seems to be a bridge between CMA and OMA. I find that interesting.
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Xue Sheng154 7
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- Thread starter
- #3
Question about this. I was doing s little research and Karate origin is said to be from 15th to 17th century. Yet XiÄng DiĆ n QuĆ”n (é¦åŗę³) Incense Shop Boxing origin is allegedly after the burning of the southern Shaolin Temple by the Qing in the mid 19th century. Additionally, the existence of the southern Shaolin temple is in question. However the Northern temple was burned in the late 1920s.
How can this be the origin of the oldest kata?
How can this be the origin of the oldest kata?
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I suspect the true origins of a kata like this are unknown, and even if incense shop boxing wasnāt established until the mid 19th century, it is possible that form existed prior. A newly established system does not spring forth fully formed from a vacuum. It develops from methods that came before, and that form could be from an older method that was carried into the newly established incense shop boxing.
I donāt know the history of incense shop boxing, but was it simply a name that came to be connected with what was practiced by a fellow who ran an incense shop? That alone indicates that it is an older method that came to be known by a new name.
As for the burning of the northern temple, I think that happened a couple of times? The first time being several hundred years ago and the last time I guess in the 1920s, although I donāt know the specifics of it.
As to the origins of karate, I think the Okinawan practiced a fighting method that was much older than the karate as we know today. During that earlier time there was influences from China and perhaps other areas that caused the earlier methods to gradually change into modern karate, which began to take on its modern form in about the 1800s or so. And even that, i think, is rather different from the modern Japanese forms of karate, especially those that emphasize competition. Those schools that remained closer to the Okinawan traditions still maintain similarity to the earlier karate of the 1800s. I think those organizations are a lot smaller than the big Japanese organizations like the JKA. Okinawan karate was taught in smaller, more intimate groups. The Japanese brought it into the schools and taught in larger, more structured and more regulated ways.
isshinryuronin53 53
Senior Master
The Shaolin monks backed and fought for the Ming Dynasty. During these war years the monks developed their reputation for military pole arms weapons. After the Qing defeated them in the late 1600's they burned down the North Shaolin temple a few times, sending many monks fleeing to the south.
Yes. It's thought there was no "Southern Shaolin" temple. Just as early karate schools here advertised "Judo and Kung Fu" as those were better known to many, Southern Chinese temples/monks/martial artists appropriated the "Shaolin" moniker for marketing and glorifying their reputation.
Much structure/organization/standardization is part of the Japanese culture, but not so much in "outback" Okinawa. While there was an attempt to unify Okinawan karate not much came from it, the various styles enjoying their independence while retaining friendly relations with each other to this day. They conformed to Japanese TMA as little as possible, and then only to be culturally accepted.
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Xue Sheng154 7
All weight is underside
- Thread starter
- #6
Currently the 1647 date for the burning is considered legend. The 1928 burning is considered historic fact. Also during the cultural revolution, which started in 1966, what was left, was pretty much destroyed by the Red Guard, and any remaining monks were scattered
Same Trick108 9
Master of Arts
Intriguing (far out possible)
āConnection to Karate
Some Karate scholars theorize about the legendary Chinese master known in Okinawa as Kushanku, being in fact Wang Zongyue [4]ā
Wang Zongyue Explained
Ok, I donāt believe thatā¦ā¦but, Kushanku/Kanku kata hold some fascinating similarities with [parts] of the Chen family Taijiquan forms, and the Chen family patriarch learned Taiji boxing from Wang Zhongyue, however it wasnāt called Taijiquan then but just -13 postures, a simple name, just like the name of the āoldestā karate kata - Seisan meaning 13.
As legend tell Wang Zhongyue learned from Zhang Sanfeng, and one line of the legend has Zhang Sanfeng hailing from Fujian province, the province from where the Okinawans got their karate .
There is another old kata within the Okinawan karate curriculum, itās called Wanshu, said to being named after the Chinese person that introduced it to Okinawa, his name was -Wang (Wan), the āshuā part in wanshu could then be short for Zhongyue ?
So three old Okinawan karate kata - Kushanku, Seisan and Wanshu , surfacewize show no similarities with each other but each have some surfacewize similarities with taijiquan
āConnection to Karate
Some Karate scholars theorize about the legendary Chinese master known in Okinawa as Kushanku, being in fact Wang Zongyue [4]ā
Wang Zongyue Explained
Ok, I donāt believe thatā¦ā¦but, Kushanku/Kanku kata hold some fascinating similarities with [parts] of the Chen family Taijiquan forms, and the Chen family patriarch learned Taiji boxing from Wang Zhongyue, however it wasnāt called Taijiquan then but just -13 postures, a simple name, just like the name of the āoldestā karate kata - Seisan meaning 13.
As legend tell Wang Zhongyue learned from Zhang Sanfeng, and one line of the legend has Zhang Sanfeng hailing from Fujian province, the province from where the Okinawans got their karate .
There is another old kata within the Okinawan karate curriculum, itās called Wanshu, said to being named after the Chinese person that introduced it to Okinawa, his name was -Wang (Wan), the āshuā part in wanshu could then be short for Zhongyue ?
So three old Okinawan karate kata - Kushanku, Seisan and Wanshu , surfacewize show no similarities with each other but each have some surfacewize similarities with taijiquan
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Xue Sheng154 7
All weight is underside
- Thread starter
- #9
To get back on track. I must admit the incense shop form does have striking similarities to the karate Kata. So much so that I do not doubt the connection. It just struck me, after posting, that I may not actually be the oldest kata. But then it might be. Could also be there were older katas that are no longer in existence.
Either way, I find it rather interesting
Either way, I find it rather interesting
_Simon_164 194
Grandmaster
Hey don't worry, none of us here have ever said that.
_Simon_164 194
Grandmaster
Yeah it is really fascinating... I'm currently learning Seisan (our version again being slightly different to standard Goju), but I can see the similarities for sure.
One thing that really has come to mind of late... it's really something special practicing a form, knowing that this form (or the essence of it) has been practiced for a very long time, and I'm stepping into and being a part of that. Something about embodying it and fully taking it on, gives it a different dimension and experience. Connecting you with not just the past, but something that's still living. I guess that can be true of any martial arts we practice.
Like there's a stream of water, and I'm willingly stepping into it and experiencing something that's been flowing for a long time. Different than just viewing it on the side..
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Xue Sheng154 7
All weight is underside
- Thread starter
- #12
I think about that from time to time myself...... Chen Wangting....... 14th generation, Chen Changxing > Yang Luchan > Yang Jianhou > Yang Chengfu > Tung Ying Chieh > my teacher > me. Although the form has change a bit from Chen Wangting's time to me....and other styles I've trained as well... Heck, when I'm in China, my brain just starts thinking on the thousands of years of history around me.
But to have the "oldest Kata" appear with such similarities to the Chinese style, is very interesting. Especially since most Chinese styles do not mov like that.
isshinryuronin53 53
Senior Master
Nice to see someone young able to appreciate the passage of time and that which it carries from past to present. The "ryu" in goju-ryu, wado-ryu and all the others does not merely mean "style." It infers the passage of a style's nature over time, from generation to generation. "...flowing for a long time" is an apt description. Being able to trace an unbroken lineage starting from 300 years ago and ending up with YOU is kind of cool.
my guy, seisan as a concept and this exact iteration of seisan are not the same thing. Seisan is a generic name for a type of form that typically has "13" steps
isshinryuronin53 53
Senior Master
13 series of moves is probably more accurate, though this number has evolved to vary from style-to-style.
It's known that seisan kata was first publicly demonstrated by Arigaki Seisho in 1867, who presumably learned it from his main teacher, Ryuruko (Wei Xixian). Prior to this, Matsumura Soken (40 years older than Arigaki) leaned this kata and later taught it to Kyan who taught Isshinryu founder Shimabuku. This puts a date of at least late 1700's on the establishment of seisan kata, but could be earlier.
This fact is bolstered by Matsumura and Ryuruko lineages having little to no connection. So, the common ancestor of the kata must have been prior to these two men learning it. What is very interesting is that the Arigaki version and Kyan version are remarkedly similar. This further supports there being a standardized Chinese seisan kata possibly by the mid or early 1700's.
The West's most renown karate historian, Patrick McCarthy, notes that the kata has elements of both Northern and Southern Chinese styles. Considering the time it would take for these elements to coalesce into a single form may place the origin of seisan kata as early as late 1600's, IMO.
Much of this is conjecture based on current info but does suggest a very possible timeline.
I dont believe they truly have a common ancestry. They just evoke a common buddhist concept
Also the kata is called Sheisan Bo, meaning 13 steps but you are correct that its more like segments.
isshinryuronin53 53
Senior Master
If you take the time to go on YouTube and look at both Arigaki seisan kata and Shorinryu seisan, the similarity is unmistakable!! Although some moves may be expressed a bit differently. it is clear they are basically the same kata and MUST have had the same ancestor.
I think Matsumura Shorin Ryu is a strong style but I do not believe it's narratives
What do you think about the relationship between Sanchin and Seisan?
isshinryuronin53 53
Senior Master
None. They evolved on different paths. The Goju version of seisan has adopted some of the principles of sanchin and is done in a way that reflects the style's nature but that is true of all styles - kata is done in accordance with their styles' principles of power, movement, and so on.
