Oldest Karate Kata from China

[Same Trick74 25]

I still hold a back in my head thought of a possible “ancien”(well a couple of hundred years) old common source of Seisan kata and Taijiquan. I previously wrote of the legend that Zhang Sanfeng(the legendary founder of Taijiquan) was a native to Fujian province, the Taijiquan he founded was eventually named “13 postures”. Zhang Sanfeng might be just a legend, but the 13 postures method is still at the core of taijiquan, the postures are not that really separate postures but instead convey ideas of directions (front/back, left/right..and so on) and whole body method.
How that relate to karate seisan kata one might have to dig deep…..I find it interesting anyhow.

Then there might be an even more outrageous connection theory between Karate Seisan kata and Taijiquan, involving the possibility of Yang Luchan and Sokon Matsumura actually met and shared ideas

 

[Shugyosha28 23]

None. They evolved on different paths. The Goju version of seisan has adopted some of the principles of sanchin and is done in a way that reflects the style's nature but that is true of all styles - kata is done in accordance with their styles' principles of power, movement, and so on.

Im an Uechi guy and I believe they are related

 

[Shugyosha28 23]

I still hold a back in my head thought of a possible “ancien”(well a couple of hundred years) old common source of Seisan kata and Taijiquan. I previously wrote of the legend that Zhang Sanfeng(the legendary founder of Taijiquan) was a native to Fujian province, the Taijiquan he founded was eventually named “13 postures”. Zhang Sanfeng might be just a legend, but the 13 postures method is still at the core of taijiquan, the postures are not that really separate postures but instead convey ideas of directions (front/back, left/right..and so on) and whole body method.
How that relate to karate seisan kata one might have to dig deep…..I find it interesting anyhow.

Then there might be an even more outrageous connection theory between Karate Seisan kata and Taijiquan, involving the possibility of Yang Luchan and Sokon Matsumura actually met and shared ideas

please elaborate this is interested

 

[Wing Woo Gar63 25]

Im an Uechi guy and I believe they are related

Sanchin and Tid sin Kuen have some similarities but I don’t believe they are related.

 

[hoshin160033]

What do you think about the relationship between Sanchin and Seisan?

For uechi ryu, sanchin is your foundational form. Seisan is considered the fighting form. In my opinion they are connected. Both historically and stylistically. I do not feel you can preform seisan properly without the foundation found in sanchin. It would be wise to remember seisan like sanchin is just a name. There are maybe 20 versions of sanchin that I am aware of. All of which are similar in dynamics and biomechinics but different in the actual form. The same would apply to seisan. Different Chinese styles could have the same name but different forms.

 

[isshinryuronin18 18]

I think Matsumura Shorin Ryu is a strong style but I do not believe it's narratives

What narratives are those?

 

[Same Trick74 25]

please elaborate this is interested

The 13 postures idea of Taijiquan -

13 Postures (十三式) - Taijiquan

Taijiquan foundation martial art skill training.

www.theultimatefist.com

 

[Shugyosha28 23]

For uechi ryu, sanchin is your foundational form. Seisan is considered the fighting form. In my opinion they are connected. Both historically and stylistically. I do not feel you can preform seisan properly without the foundation found in sanchin. It would be wise to remember seisan like sanchin is just a name. There are maybe 20 versions of sanchin that I am aware of. All of which are similar in dynamics and biomechinics but different in the actual form. The same would apply to seisan. Different Chinese styles could have the same name but different forms.

Actually I feel huzunquan, ng go cho, chow gar, the various white cranes actually have nearly identical Sam Chein forms. I found a longzunquan style from north fujian that has a wildly different Sanchin in terms of hand movement s recently that was interesting to see.

You’re right though. We have to remember that most kung fu styles are merely decades older in their concrete stylization than Okinawan karate styles. For example, Uechi Ryu is a snapshot in time of a particular huzunquan teacher’s style and the two cousin branches of Uechi Ryu in China (guo family tiger boxing and yongtai county tiger boxing) also have different forms than each other but pull from identical pools of techniques.

Chinese boxing prior to the late 1890s, at least in fujian was largely technique/waza first. Forms were secret and personal. Even San chin which is prolific and (at least I feel) is merely identical across multiple styles, had variations into the late 1800s, as I’ve seen line drawings of one armed and two armed Sanchin. (I also wonder if older styles used both versions as Sanchin is a bodybuilding kata) The oldest parts of the bubishi are just a bunch of pictures describing self defense techniques from white crane boxing. You can still buy playing card sets with 108 white cranes techniques split between two decks of playing cards in fuzhou.

Anyway, I think there’s a myth that firms have all the techniques of a system so if the forms are different the techniques are different. All crane styles pull from the same pool of 300 or so techniques and the forms changes depending on the teachers preferences. Some forms are set in stone by now, but I’m sure others evolve and have personal/local flavor. I know that Huzunquan, Guo family tiger boxing and Uechi Ryu all share and pull from the same pool of techniques and training methods as well.

Technique driven instruction/waza-kumite first is one of the things that I think has been preserved best in the kempo traditions in Hawaii actually, and that’s because James Mitose was relying heavily on Motobu Choki’s books and Motobu Kenpo preserves that old style of karate which is very technique driven and waza first

Anyway I feel like we agree here lol.

 

[Shugyosha28 23]

What narratives are those?

Well first of all, I’m not judging a style based on the veracity of its mythology. It’s a strong style and it’s a good style. I just haven’t seen a ton of proof that the core shoring Ryu kata are 100% from Sokon Matsumura. However because it’s supposedly pulling from the white crane pool of techniques, I just haven’t seen enough in the kata to say oh yeah that’s def gotta be from Matsumura. Doesn’t mean it’s not a great style or that the person who brought it public is a fraud. It could very well be the case that he taught precisely the kata and techniques from Matsumura. Their naihanchi almost certainly did.

 

[Shugyosha28 23]

Sanchin and Tid sin Kuen have some similarities but I don’t believe they are related.

I don’t know enough about Hung Gar to have an opinion other than it would be cool it would be cool to learn the tiger/crane form one of these days.

Are you related to GM James Wing Woo or just a practitioner? I’ve always wanted to talk to some of his people.

 

[Shugyosha28 23]

The 13 postures idea of Taijiquan -

13 Postures (十三式) - Taijiquan

Taijiquan foundation martial art skill training.

www.theultimatefist.com

Oh wow this wound up being too esoteric of me. I’ve been meaning to read the 4 classics so I have a better understanding of these ideas. I’m reading journey to the west right now and a lot of them come up here and there too. Thank you though I will revisit in the future when I can grasp the concepts

 

[isshinryuronin18 18]

Well first of all, I’m not judging a style based on the veracity of its mythology. It’s a strong style and it’s a good style. I just haven’t seen a ton of proof that the core shoring Ryu kata are 100% from Sokon Matsumura. However because it’s supposedly pulling from the white crane pool of techniques, I just haven’t seen enough in the kata to say oh yeah that’s def gotta be from Matsumura. Doesn’t mean it’s not a great style or that the person who brought it public is a fraud. It could very well be the case that he taught precisely the kata and techniques from Matsumura. Their naihanchi almost certainly did.

Of course, Bushi Matsumura did not teach Shorinryu - there were no named Okinawan styles in his day. That name was coined by Chibana Choshin. a student of Itosu. It's better called proto-Shuri-te. Hohan Soken is the founder of Matsumura Shorinryu (1950's). He was taught by his uncle, Nabe, who was taught by his grandfather, Bushi Matsumura. This direct line suggests the kata are likely close to what the elder Matsumura taught with some modifications more attuned to the non-professional warrior.

 

[Same Trick74 25]

Oh wow this wound up being too esoteric of me. I’ve been meaning to read the 4 classics so I have a better understanding of these ideas. I’m reading journey to the west right now and a lot of them come up here and there too. Thank you though I will revisit in the future when I can grasp the concepts

Haha, yes , don’t look at the diagrams showing relation to the bagua trigrams and elements and such, I means for little.

It was the first page that came up when I googled in English, but I think the little text in between explains quite well what it’s about,

 

[Wing Woo Gar63 25]

I don’t know enough about Hung Gar to have an opinion other than it would be cool it would be cool to learn the tiger/crane form one of these days.

Are you related to GM James Wing Woo or just a practitioner? I’ve always wanted to talk to some of his people.

I am a Sifu in the system, James Wing Woo was my Sigung, Paul Gale was my Sifu. I have 30 years in the system come April. I appreciate that you can appreciate him. James Wing Woo was a very special human being, I am grateful to have known him and to have trained with him. Not so many people know about him as he never advertised and taught from the gym on his property in Hollywood for his last several decades of his life.

 

[Wing Woo Gar63 25]

I don’t know enough about Hung Gar to have an opinion other than it would be cool it would be cool to learn the tiger/crane form one of these days.

Are you related to GM James Wing Woo or just a practitioner? I’ve always wanted to talk to some of his people.

Fu Hok is in our system repertoire as JWW trained Hung Gar among others in 1920s-1930s Canton as a youngster. I’m not a forms collector, but 2 of my training brothers are. Mike LaTeer ( a 2nd gen 40 year student of Woo) told me Sifu Woo knew more than 90 forms. He definitely taught a few including Tid Sin Kuen. His Yang Tai Chi Chuan was a superlative expression of the art. I’m lucky to have 5 of my 25-35 year training brothers from Sifu Gales gym still training with me. A few of us now also train at Dr Yang Jwing Mings house who lives a mile from me, that includes Jess O’ Brien. Full circle, Jess teachers include Luo, Kumar, Paul Gale, James Wing Woo, Dr Yang, amongst others…