old school/clasic tkd

[Earl Weiss]

Nice video, Manny. Master McPhail is a very impressive Taekwon-Do technician and I remember seeing Mr. Pellow test for IV dan back in 1993. His ho sin sul was pretty cool. Dangerous man.

Pax,

Chris

Sir,

Your memory is much better than mine. (You must be much younger Is this the same camp / testing GM Lang tested at?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Sir,

Your memory is much better than mine. (You must be much younger

Master Weiss, in my mind I'm still 18. I just wish someone would mention that to my body on some days

Is this the same camp / testing GM Lang tested at?

No, sir. GM Lang was already a VI dan at the 1993 camp. I remember seeing both he and GM Winegar wearing GM Sereff's old VI dan belt at the camp, in fact. Both gentlemen are very impresive. I recall seeing then-Mr. Winegar demonstrating Tong-Il and thinking, "Yeah, those angle finger tip thrusts could actually kill someone." Lots of great memories about that camp and had a really great time.

Pax,

Chris

 

[MJS]

Admin Note:

You will notice that some posts from another thread, "Old School/Classic TKD" have been merged with this one, as they're pretty much the same topic. Please keep this thread on track.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin

 

[Gemini]

I think you mean you competed in WTF events, not Kukkiwon events.

Actually, I didn't mention either one, so I'll assume you're referring to puunui's question that I responded to. "and has attended and judged KKW competitions? Have you competed at a KKW competition, and if so, have you won any trophies?"

...However, those 17 types of sparring would be depleted and no where near as effective without #17, which is the only type of Taekwondo sparring that allows for full contact training.

No argument here. I think I've clearly supported this position myself.

 

[Gemini]

My post was closed, it seems it went wrong and I didin't want it to be that way, so sorry folks, please acept my apologies. Well somebody asked how is the class in JDK headquarters in my city. Well the class is very rounded, it has nice warm up/stretching/conditioning in the begining and it does not FOCUS ONLY in kicking drills, JDK teaches basics and advanced techs,one steps and three steps, ho-sin-sul,poomsae and kyorugi in a regular basis not only one week before the kups tests.

The average class I have seen in other dojangs (sport oriented) is good cardio for sure and mostly kicking drills and sparring (WTF), very few self defense techs, etc,etc.

I am not a sport TKD guy, I do TKD because I love the martial side of it, when I was teen I do competition, maybe I went to no more than 8 tornaments most of them as a red belt and all consited of local tournaments, I won some medals and I lost many fights but competition was not the driving force that keep me learning and practicing TKD.

I love the old way and the old methods, simply as that, maybe I am too square and maybe I am too old to change or become a super duper TKD man like Steven Lopez, or maybe because I've never succeded in TKD competition.

here in this forum thare are many sambonims that feel the new methods are better and TKD is better today than ever, and there are a small group of old f.....rts that love the way TKD was a few decades ago. Something that drove out of TKD in the 90's was all the efforts to do TKD an olimpic sport, the trainings become oriented to the olimpics and slowly things changed the way I don't liked it.

The above is my way of thinking, I won't change my feelings, I will keep trying to teach the way I like and that's all folks, a medal or a trophy never represented too much.

Manny

There's absolutely nothing for you to apologize for, though some other's should probably do so. As for your training, the only person your training has to appeal to is you. I'd still like to know why you left the school you mentioned in your original post. Seemed like you where a pretty good match. If you responded and I missed it through all the fertilizer, I apologize.

 

[GlassJaw]

Some posts were removed and we'll be reading thru the thread again to see if there was anything we missed. Most likely by tomorrow, it'll be reopened.

Thanks for keep things running smoothly around here!

I just want to suggest that it might have helped to have posted that (the part that the offending posts had already been removed) at the time of the thread's closing.

As it was, when I saw the warning, I started paging back through earlier posts to figure out what set it off (so that I could better understand the how the admins interpret the rules--I got de-repped a few years ago when someone else got a mod warning for bumping an old thread, then I got slammed for daring to ask what the proper procedure should have been--I'm still trying to figure out just what the rules are; "reasonable" is a very subjective concept).

But I couldn't find anything there that I thought was particularly personal. (A brief panic went through my head: "Oh no, has MT gone police state? The only way to learn the laws is to unwittingly break one!") Then I got to this part where you say that the posts that crossed the line had already been removed. ("Whew!)

 

[miguksaram]

Excellent post. To take this a step further, in regards to sparring;

• Do the opponents begin the sparring immediately, or is there a time prior to the physical conflict that verbal de-esculation skills can be attempted and practiced?
• Is there an opportunity to evade or escape?
• Do either have the option and/or ability to use improvised weapons?
• Can either attempt to use cover and/or concealment?
• Can several of the opposition have 'friends' join the conflict so that multiple opponents are now in the equation?
• Is the same footwear always worn?
• Are both parties required to abide by the same rules?
• Any chance of going to the ground?
• Any chance the 'good guy' can do a gross motor skill 'stun and run'?
• Do they spar in all lighting conditions, including dim light conditions?
• Do they always spar on a dry, level surface or are slopes and alternative surfaces utilized like the parking lot, grass etc?
• Is a uniform and/or belt always worn, or regular street clothes.
• Is the sparring session begun at a pre-arranged time or is one party completely surprised (read typical ambush)?
• If a mistake is made, or a strike connects do the opponents continue or do they reset their positions and start again.
• Are they always started in a standing position, facing each other? Or can one be on the ground at a postiton of disadvantage at the start?
• Do they always train inside the school or can they train out in the parking lot between a couple of parked cars, a ditch, an elevator, a stairway, an alley etc?

These are just some of the considerations that may separate the two methodologies. This is what I'm talking about and that old school, in my experience (and not just TKD) addresses.

Please cite TKD schools train like this "back in the day". While I think this type of training can be useful, I have yet to run across any TKD schools old or new have never trained in this method. So I am curious as to what schools your refer to. Plus I am still waiting for the answer to my question. The OP is talking about Old School TKD correct?

 

[Archtkd]

Well somebody asked how is the class in JDK headquarters in my city. Well the class is very rounded, it has nice warm up/stretching/conditioning in the begining and it does not FOCUS ONLY in kicking drills, JDK teaches basics and advanced techs,one steps and three steps, ho-sin-sul,poomsae and kyorugi in a regular basis not only one week before the kups tests.

The average class I have seen in other dojangs (sport oriented) is good cardio for sure and mostly kicking drills and sparring (WTF), very few self defense techs, etc,etc.

I am not a sport TKD guy, I do TKD because I love the martial side of it, when I was teen I do competition, maybe I went to no more than 8 tornaments most of them as a red belt and all consited of local tournaments, I won some medals and I lost many fights but competition was not the driving force that keep me learning and practicing TKD.

I love the old way and the old methods, simply as that, maybe I am too square and maybe I am too old to change or become a super duper TKD man like Steven Lopez, or maybe because I've never succeded in TKD competition.
Manny

I don't get what the fuss is all about. I've done Kukkiwon style taekwondo for more than 25 years under different teachers, and all the things you cite, save for three steps, were and continue to be part of the classes. We do the same things in our dojang today, but we've never labeled ourselves as modern, classic, traditional, etc. The folks who compete or simply want to be the best taekwondoin in our dojang should/might spend extra time on WTF sparring, but they also have to be well grounded in the other stuff. What we always strived to improve is the trainining methods to reduce injury and improve mental and physcal fitness. I don't think we are an unusual Kukkiwon style dojang, save for that we still have a floating wooden floor in our main training area. We have a WTF regulation matted floor in the area where we do full contract sparring and self defense that involves throw and takedowns.

 

[Manny]

I don't get what the fuss is all about. I've done Kukkiwon style taekwondo for more than 25 years under different teachers, and all the things you cite, save for three steps, were and continue to be part of the classes. We do the same things in our dojang today, but we've never labeled ourselves as modern, classic, traditional, etc. The folks who compete or simply want to be the best taekwondoin in our dojang should/might spend extra time on WTF sparring, but they also have to be well grounded in the other stuff. What we always strived to improve is the trainining methods to reduce injury and improve mental and physcal fitness. I don't think we are an unusual Kukkiwon style dojang, save for that we still have a floating wooden floor in our main training area. We have a WTF regulation matted floor in the area where we do full contract sparring and self defense that involves throw and takedowns.

What is missing in many dojangs in my city isthat these dojangs classes are focused on WTF sparring very influenced by Olimpic Games, so basicallly all the other stuff is put aside/beside, the time used for one steps/three steps (in fact in some dojangs they don´t know how to perform three steps), ho shi sul and the other techs like blocking,stances etc. is very little.

For example, the blocks we usually do in our dojang are the low, the high and the middle blocks (ogul makki, are makki, yop makki, motong an and motong bakat makki) but what about the X block/orgoro makki or the hecho makki? the regula drills we do once in a while is igh block+reverse punch, or low block and reverse punch, and that's all.

Pu it in other way, the sambonims expendes or uses most of the tclass time on footwork and kicking drills and lets almost nothing to practice another things of the KUKIWON curricula.


I try to see in every class I teach not only kicking drills but basic techs, hand/kick combos, defenses and blocks,poomsae and if time allows me even aplications of what we see in class, I am not expend all the time kicking the mitts or palchaguiis for example.

But as some one mentioned here, there are folks intersted in WTF Sparring/Olimpic Saprring and there are some folks that lie the old ways of teaching TKD.

Last night training consited of some footwork using bandal chagui/peet chagui offensively and defensively and we finish class doing light sparring using only the techs we were doing. Maybe next class I will teach basics and one steps/theree steps aplications and if time allos a a little poomsae.


Manny

 

[Archtkd]

What is missing in many dojangs in my city isthat these dojangs classes are focused on WTF sparring very influenced by Olimpic Games, so basicallly all the other stuff is put aside/beside, the time used for one steps/three steps (in fact in some dojangs they don´t know how to perform three steps), ho shi sul and the other techs like blocking,stances etc. is very little.

For example, the blocks we usually do in our dojang are the low, the high and the middle blocks (ogul makki, are makki, yop makki, motong an and motong bakat makki) but what about the X block/orgoro makki or the hecho makki? the regula drills we do once in a while is igh block+reverse punch, or low block and reverse punch, and that's all.

Pu it in other way, the sambonims expendes or uses most of the tclass time on footwork and kicking drills and lets almost nothing to practice another things of the KUKIWON curricula.


I try to see in every class I teach not only kicking drills but basic techs, hand/kick combos, defenses and blocks,poomsae and if time allows me even aplications of what we see in class, I am not expend all the time kicking the mitts or palchaguiis for example.

But as some one mentioned here, there are folks intersted in WTF Sparring/Olimpic Saprring and there are some folks that lie the old ways of teaching TKD.

Last night training consited of some footwork using bandal chagui/peet chagui offensively and defensively and we finish class doing light sparring using only the techs we were doing. Maybe next class I will teach basics and one steps/theree steps aplications and if time allos a a little poomsae.

Manny

I think you shoud look for another dojang to train in. I'm sure there will be other instructors in your city who offer a more balanced taekwondo curriculum. Also, what you are talking about is an issue of dojang/instructor and probably market preference, much more than a systemic issue. i.e.. the idea that Kukkiwon style taekwondo has dramatically changed over the last few years and that the bulk of its instructors have abandonded everything else for the sake of WTF sparring and commercialization is incorrect.

I also think what you appear to be decrying is a lack of serious basic taekwondo training in your dojang, much more than the lack of recently developed hard-core self defense training techniques for the deadly streets, as some have been implying on this thread.

Individual Kukkiwon style taekwondo instructors worldwide have always and will continue to teach in different ways, sometimes emphasizing on some things more than others. I however do not believe that all Kukkiwon style teachers have carte blanche decided that WTF sparring is the only thing to focus on. In fact there are very few commercially succesful Kukkiwon style dojangs in the U.S. focusing entirely on serious WTF sparring: It makes little money.

 

[puunui]

What is missing in many dojangs in my city isthat these dojangs classes are focused on WTF sparring very influenced by Olimpic Games, so basicallly all the other stuff is put aside/beside, the time used for one steps/three steps (in fact in some dojangs they don´t know how to perform three steps), ho shi sul and the other techs like blocking,stances etc. is very little.

If that is what many dojang in your city are doing, then it is probably because it is what the students want. If there is very little of the other stuff, the reason probably is that nobody wants that.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If that is what many dojang in your city are doing, then it is probably because it is what the students want. If there is very little of the other stuff, the reason probably is that nobody wants that.

Possibly, but perhaps not probably. Another explanation would be that the instructor(s) are not well versed in the other areas. If they were trained in one venue, they would be at a disadvantage teaching in another venue. Or, it is financially lucrative to concentrate on a specific area.

The individual student won't be a determining factor on what is taught. They take what is offered. It isn't like they are going to vote. If the majority of schools offer a specific venue, then the student is limited to what the options are going to be.

 

[mastercole]

Taekwondo has grown very strong all through Latin America, and in Mexico in particular because of Olympic style competition. The Olympic Summer Games are coming to Brazil in 2016, so it is only going to grow more and more, and that is a good thing.

Personal, I would recommend that you ride that wave, and try to enjoy it. It won't last forever and will be a time and place that many many Taekwondoin in Latin America will look back on as fun and exciting times. There is always time to dig in and focus on the full curriculum of Kukkiwon Taekwondo, but an event like this only comes to a region once in a lifetime.

I say, don't miss out.

 

[Earl Weiss]

............. something that self defense expert peyton quinn advocates is one of the most important aspects of self defense training. If you go to one of his camps, a large portion is devoted to defending against the bullet man, striking the bullet man as hard as you can. peyton is an advocate of high adrenaline full contact training.

I have been to RMCAT and banging on the bullet men was great fun. It was a litle freaky jabbing at the eyes ( i Was worried I'd still hurt them since the fingers stretched the screening an inch or so.) . A good portion was having them "Woof" on you insulting your race, ethnicity, family etc. Bill Kipp was one of the of the original guys was serving as a Bulletman. We were told to "De escalate, but I couldn't resist messing with him. One of the few times I ever saw him miss a beat as a "Woofer" . It also happened to be the only time, up until then that he was ever injured as a bulletman and they took quite a beating.

Since I am not a big guy and since all that padding made them hard to get a hold of, I was unable to use standup grappling with any effectivenenss. I would have like to play with that more. My ground grappling background came thru. It was nice that the bulletmen geared their intensity level to that of the "Campers". The good size trained adult male was attacked with more intensity and sophistication than the 110lb untrained female. They would also set you up for failure if you were more experienced. They would do this by teaching you a technique they wanted you to use then attack you and have you use that technique only to counter it.

Took me a while to figure this out. Realized it when I saw them do it to someone else. Next time I went to plan B. This befuddled the Bulletman so much that the next time it came up he attacked me the same way. Plan b worked again.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Possibly, but perhaps not probably. Another explanation would be that the instructor(s) are not well versed in the other areas. If they were trained in one venue, they would be at a disadvantage teaching in another venue. Or, it is financially lucrative to concentrate on a specific area.

The individual student won't be a determining factor on what is taught. They take what is offered. It isn't like they are going to vote. If the majority of schools offer a specific venue, then the student is limited to what thie options are going to be.

I think you are right. Its largely because instructors dont know how to teach the other way in many cases. New students will flock to the clubs who market themselves the best usually. New students generally think all ma is the same. Its a bit far fetched to suggest schools focus on wtf sparring because thats what students want.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Possibly, but perhaps not probably. Another explanation would be that the instructor(s) are not well versed in the other areas. If they were trained in one venue, they would be at a disadvantage teaching in another venue. Or, it is financially lucrative to concentrate on a specific area.

The individual student won't be a determining factor on what is taught. They take what is offered. It isn't like they are going to vote. If the majority of schools offer a specific venue, then the student is limited to what the options are going to be.

Very true. The average person walking into a school for the first time isn't going to know what's geared towards sport, towards street, towards pure show (the XMA stuff) or what overlap there is between those areas.

Odds are, they're walking in not because of what is taught, but because of how effectively it's marketed.

 

[puunui]

The individual student won't be a determining factor on what is taught. They take what is offered. It isn't like they are going to vote. If the majority of schools offer a specific venue, then the student is limited to what the options are going to be.

Or they will take another style and not taekwondo. People want what they want, and if they do not want something, they aren't going to be spending the big bucks schools charge now to enroll their children or themselves. It is the basic law of economics. Give people what they want, and they will flock to you. Offer something that the public does not want, and you will go out of business.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Or they will take another style and not taekwondo. People want what they want, and if they do not want something, they aren't going to be spending the big bucks schools charge now to enroll their children or themselves. It is the basic law of economics. Give people what they want, and they will flock to you. Offer something that the public does not want, and you will go out of business.

When it comes to martial arts the public usually dont know what they want. They roll up to the local dojo, see a guy in a black belt with half a dozen stripes on it and from there on that guys word is gospel. In Manny's area, for instance, wtf clubs are everywhere and have the market share. In my area, wtf clubs struggle, and the old school clubs have the largest percentge of tkd students. Why? Marketing. It is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that most schools in Manny's area are wtf olympic style schools because "thats what students want".

 

[puunui]

Taekwondo has grown very strong all through Latin America, and in Mexico in particular because of Olympic style competition. The Olympic Summer Games are coming to Brazil in 2016, so it is only going to grow more and more, and that is a good thing.

Personal, I would recommend that you ride that wave, and try to enjoy it. It won't last forever and will be a time and place that many many Taekwondoin in Latin America will look back on as fun and exciting times. There is always time to dig in and focus on the full curriculum of Kukkiwon Taekwondo, but an event like this only comes to a region once in a lifetime.

I say, don't miss out.

Exactly. You can either go with the flow or constantly fight the upstream battle like a spawning salmon. I prefer to go with the flow.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What is missing in many dojangs in my city isthat these dojangs classes are focused on WTF sparring very influenced by Olimpic Games, so basicallly all the other stuff is put aside/beside, the time used for one steps/three steps (in fact in some dojangs they don´t know how to perform three steps), ho shi sul and the other techs like blocking,stances etc. is very little.

For example, the blocks we usually do in our dojang are the low, the high and the middle blocks (ogul makki, are makki, yop makki, motong an and motong bakat makki) but what about the X block/orgoro makki or the hecho makki? the regula drills we do once in a while is igh block+reverse punch, or low block and reverse punch, and that's all.

Pu it in other way, the sambonims expendes or uses most of the tclass time on footwork and kicking drills and lets almost nothing to practice another things of the KUKIWON curricula.


I try to see in every class I teach not only kicking drills but basic techs, hand/kick combos, defenses and blocks,poomsae and if time allows me even aplications of what we see in class, I am not expend all the time kicking the mitts or palchaguiis for example.

But as some one mentioned here, there are folks intersted in WTF Sparring/Olimpic Saprring and there are some folks that lie the old ways of teaching TKD.

Last night training consited of some footwork using bandal chagui/peet chagui offensively and defensively and we finish class doing light sparring using only the techs we were doing. Maybe next class I will teach basics and one steps/theree steps aplications and if time allos a a little poomsae.


Manny

This is exactly the situation with wtf clubs in my area. They are 100% geared toward the olympic sparring. My friends who train at these clubs come and train with me at my house occasionally and when it comes to anything to do with olympic sparring they are experts. They know that this counters that, but this wont counter that unless you do a back kick but that wont usually score unless you turn your foot this way etc etc. Every last thing they do is in realation to olympic sparring ruleset. It is their whole focus. One of them is a second degree black belt and when we do punching drills on my bag its obvious he has never been taught to punch properly. When a mate of mine asked him why he cant punch, his response was "because punches rarely score". I know this is not representative of every wtf club, but in my area it desribes most wtf clubs, and from what manny says, its a representation of his area also.