Old Martial Arts techniques.

[JowGaWolf]

Not sure how I got here, but since I'm here I might as well share.

This is an old WWI training video. You'll see some nice boxing and Kung fu concepts here. Some of this stuff looks like modern boxing

FYI the leg grab and kick to the groin is legit. I speak from experience on the receiving end. I thought this was pretty awesome, not the war but the training. You can catch glimpses of some of these guys smiling.

You'll see some Aikido like techniques as well. (above video)

The martial arts concept of the similarity of Empty hand fighting and weapon techniques.

Full training video

 

[RTKDCMB]

They're quick.

 

[drop bear]

Can't say I am loving this move.

 

[Hanzou]

Meh.

We’ve clearly gotten better at hand to hand fighting since those videos were made. The old ways are definitely not the best ways.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Meh.

We’ve clearly gotten better at hand to hand fighting since those videos were made. The old ways are definitely not the best ways.

Some ways worse though. More sportinised today than back then.

I recall them installing or wanting to install some basics comabtives into people as the people who engaged in hand to hand combat with a comabt sport background on average did better than the people that didnt. This is the U.K anyway.

Its the intresting world where boxing had wrestling, and wrestling had boxing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Meh.

We’ve clearly gotten better at hand to hand fighting since those videos were made. The old ways are definitely not the best ways.

Don't think about it as being better or worse. Some of these techniques are the same techniques that are used by some of today's tops sports competitors. Are there mistakes in some of these? of course. like the one drop bear says he doesn't like. But it isn't a big deal, slip to the outside instead of the inside and you'll have a working technique.

 

[Hanzou]

Some ways worse though. More sportinised today than back then.

I recall them installing or wanting to install some basics comabtives into people as the people who engaged in hand to hand combat with a comabt sport background on average did better than the people that didnt. This is the U.K anyway.

Its the intresting world where boxing had wrestling, and wrestling had boxing.

It’s sport that has kept the martial arts as a whole from becoming obsolete, hence why plenty of “combative” training incorporates sports like boxing and Judo into their programs. Things are more “sportinized” these days because people recognize that martial sports tend to get better results than traditional martial arts, and is simply more applicable to the modern era.

 

[Hanzou]

Don't think about it as being better or worse. Some of these techniques are the same techniques that are used by some of today's tops sports competitors. Are there mistakes in some of these? of course. like the one drop bear says he doesn't like. But it isn't a big deal, slip to the outside instead of the inside and you'll have a working technique.

If there are mistakes that have been corrected by modern MAs, wouldn’t that make these older versions worse by default?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Can't say I am loving this move.

View attachment 23798

ha ha ha..slipping to the power hand side? What's not to like? what could go wrong? lol.

Concept is solid he just slipped the punch on the wrong side. The instructor that I used to spar a lot with used always slip my punches like that and I would always stop the match because of it. You couldn't ask for a better set up to punch someone as hard as you can. And you get the bonus of them moving into the punch. To this day he still probably doesn't realize what he did wrong.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Things are more “sportinized” these days because people recognize that martial sports tend to get better results than traditional martial arts, and is simply more applicable to the modern era.

This doesn't make any sense to me especially since martial arts sports use TMA techniques. The concept of hooking under a punch can be seen in this video. So the concept at the very lease is 72 years before the first UFC.

It's not that martial arts sports get better results than TMA martial arts school. It fact is that there's less to figure out in terms of how to apply a technique because Martial arts sports has already done that. Go to any TMA school and there's going to be some things that a student will have to figure out when it comes to martial arts application.

You can't just watch a video of Jow Ga techniques used in fighting in a high skill level competition. Even worse you can't just go to any Jow Ga school and say. "Hey can I throw some punches at you so I can record how you use your Jow Ga techniques."

Even when you do have video the people are never skilled enough to use their signature techniques. Here's a Hung Ga video. It has the same signature techniques as Jow Ga because Jow Ga uses Hung Ga techniques. You have seen me do these techniques (the big wheel punches). If I can do them why can't he do them? I've seen MMA fighters successfully use long fist technique similar to what Hung ga uses, but we don't see this guy working those techniques. So if you want to find someone who has it figured out then your best bet is to find someone in MMA that uses it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If there are mistakes that have been corrected by modern MAs, wouldn’t that make these older versions worse by default?

No, and here's why. Just because you see a soldier in an old video make a mistake doesn't mean others were making that same mistake. Every TMA school that I have been expose to is always moving to the outside of punches because it's the safest path. You can move to the inside of a punch but it's a high risk move. If I move inside a punch, then I still have 2 arms that I have to deal with. If I move outside of a punch then I only have one. This is a concept that has been around since the 17th century for Hung Ga and probably even longer

So a lot of things that people claim to be making better just isn't true. It's stuff that's been around for a long time and it's the just that modern generations are just now getting around to it. People used to think Jon Jones kicks was usless until he laid it out on some fighters. The public was more excited about the kick than he was. To him it was just a push kick to the knee. Not only has that technique been around for centuries it's found in many different Martial Art systems.
So Jon Jones didn't make it better. He just showed the world that it works

This stuff isn't new. It just that a lot of TMA schools have changed their focuses from fight applications to forms performance

 

[Hanzou]

This doesn't make any sense to me especially since martial arts sports use TMA techniques. The concept of hooking under a punch can be seen in this video. So the concept at the very lease is 72 years before the first UFC.

It's not that martial arts sports get better results than TMA martial arts school. It fact is that there's less to figure out in terms of how to apply a technique because Martial arts sports has already done that. Go to any TMA school and there's going to be some things that a student will have to figure out when it comes to martial arts application.

So what you’re saying is that after decades of studying a traditional Kung Fu, learning forms, weapons, tiger claws, etc. the best I can hope for is to end up fighting like a sloppy boxer? If that’s the case, why not just take boxing and get better results in far less time?

You can't just watch a video of Jow Ga techniques used in fighting in a high skill level competition. Even worse you can't just go to any Jow Ga school and say. "Hey can I throw some punches at you so I can record how you use your Jow Ga techniques."

Even when you do have video the people are never skilled enough to use their signature techniques. Here's a Hung Ga video. It has the same signature techniques as Jow Ga because Jow Ga uses Hung Ga techniques. You have seen me do these techniques (the big wheel punches). If I can do them why can't he do them? I've seen MMA fighters successfully use long fist technique similar to what Hung ga uses, but we don't see this guy working those techniques. So if you want to find someone who has it figured out then your best bet is to find someone in MMA that uses it.

See above. You’re kind of making my point here.

 

[Hanzou]

No, and here's why. Just because you see a soldier in an old video make a mistake doesn't mean others were making that same mistake. Every TMA school that I have been expose to is always moving to the outside of punches because it's the safest path. You can move to the inside of a punch but it's a high risk move. If I move inside a punch, then I still have 2 arms that I have to deal with. If I move outside of a punch then I only have one. This is a concept that has been around since the 17th century for Hung Ga and probably even longer

So a lot of things that people claim to be making better just isn't true. It's stuff that's been around for a long time and it's the just that modern generations are just now getting around to it. People used to think Jon Jones kicks was usless until he laid it out on some fighters. The public was more excited about the kick than he was. To him it was just a push kick to the knee. Not only has that technique been around for centuries it's found in many different Martial Art systems.
So Jon Jones didn't make it better. He just showed the world that it works

This stuff isn't new. It just that a lot of TMA schools have changed their focuses from fight applications to forms performance

And this leads back to the fundamental question; if TMAs are so adept at fighting, why aren’t we seeing TMA practitioners or systems dominating the combat sport circuits? If an up and coming MMA fighter is looking for a striking coach, 9/10 it’s going to be a boxing or MT coach.

As always theory is nice to argue about, but for the people doing fighting for a living, the choices are established and clear.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So what you’re saying is that after decades of studying a traditional Kung Fu, learning forms, weapons, tiger claws, etc. the best I can hope for is to end up fighting like a sloppy boxer?

What I'm saying is that just because he looked like a sloppy boxer, doesn't mean you'll look like a sloppy boxer doing the same technique. However, if you don't train the technique then yes. You'll look look like a sloppy boxer. People who don't train to play the guitar, play like sloppy guitar players. But if you train to play the guitar correctly, then it will hard to play like a sloppy guitar player.

See above. You’re kind of making my point here.

The point that I'm making when made that comment is that very few people actually train Jow Ga like this.

Find this guy and he'll be able to show you a few things.

Find this school school and the chances that you'll find someone that can show you a few things in application are slim.

Most TMA schools within any system train like the second video and is made of people who look like those who are in the second video. This is the school that I used to teach at. Do these people look more like the first video or the second video? Do any of these people look like they do or train to compete in MMA or even full contact kung fu. Lei tai? The picture below is the norm of what you see in TMA schools because most of those people do not have any interest in competing at an MMA level. The most they want to do is beat the guy attacking them on the street.

There are TMA schools that train professional fighters, but they aren't many and you really have to look for them. Out of all the people in this picture only one was training for full contact.

 

[JowGaWolf]

if TMAs are so adept at fighting, why aren’t we seeing TMA practitioners or systems dominating the combat sport circuits?

Because most TMA schools aren't focused on training fighters. Most TMA schools focus on people who look like this. Who have no interest in fighting in MMA. There are TMA schools that do train fighters but it's very few who do. And those that do may train three or 4 from a school that looks like this.

Even when I train to fight, I'm not trying to get to a level that would allow me to compete in MMA. All I need is a level to that is good enough to allow me to hang with some amateur fighters and people on the street. I've done the sports training before and it's a lot of work, and it requires more time than I have available. When I trained for sports, it was easy for me to dedicate 5 hours a day to training. I don't have 5 hours a day for training. Some days I don't have any training hours available.

 

[JowGaWolf]

As always theory is nice to argue about, but for the people doing fighting for a living, the choices are established and clear.

And now you prove my point. I don't train to fight for a living. I have an 8 hour job, then I have my kung fu training, then I have business responsibilities and family responsibilities. Most of the time after my 8 hour job, I want to just relax. And do other things. If someone would pay me what I make now to train to fight, then yes. I would train to fight in MMA. Easily. But they don't so I won't. I'll only train to the level that I want to reach to be effective at dealing with someone on the street and to handle a few amateur fighters.

If you want to see TMA fighters in MMA then you have first find someone interested in an TMA system and then that person has to be willing to put in that much work.

 

[Hanzou]

What I'm saying is that just because he looked like a sloppy boxer, doesn't mean you'll look like a sloppy boxer doing the same technique. However, if you don't train the technique then yes. You'll look look like a sloppy boxer. People who don't train to play the guitar, play like sloppy guitar players. But if you train to play the guitar correctly, then it will hard to play like a sloppy guitar player.

Yeah, you’re missing the point. The point is that despite all of those years of Kung Fu training, when it comes to actual fighting, they’re resorting to sloppy boxing. So again, if I’m looking to learn how to fight, why would I spend decades learning Hung Ga when I can get the same results much faster in western boxing?

The point that I'm making when made that comment is that very few people actually train Jow Ga like this.

Find this guy and he'll be able to show you a few things.

Find this school school and the chances that you'll find someone that can show you a few things in application are slim.

Most TMA schools within any system train like the second video and is made of people who look like those who are in the second video. This is the school that I used to teach at. Do these people look more like the first video or the second video? Do any of these people look like they do or train to compete in MMA or even full contact kung fu. Lei tai? The picture below is the norm of what you see in TMA schools because most of those people do not have any interest in competing at an MMA level. The most they want to do is beat the guy attacking them on the street.
View attachment 23799

There are TMA schools that train professional fighters, but they aren't many and you really have to look for them. Out of all the people in this picture only one was training for full contact.

And you miss the point again; Even if those schools aren’t training professional fighters, if they had the goods those fighters would still seek them out regardless. Why is that not happening? Because TMAs simply don’t have the goods in that regard. If you’re looking to make a career out of competitive fighting, you’re simply not going to waste your time (and money) learning an outdated fighting system that will put you at a competitive disadvantage.

Does that make TMAs worthless and useless? Of course not. However, it’s nonsense to believe that TMAs are on par with modern systems because they have older and less tested theories on fighting.

 

[paitingman]

Thanks for sharing this @JowGaWolf
Really cool old footage.

People should also keep in mind that we are looking at some young men LEARNING combatives.
The two soldiers demoing I am assuming were the two that picked it up fastest.

Also as a southpaw, I slip jabs to the inside quite often. Like most defenses, you just can't be lazy about it.

 

[Hanzou]

And now you prove my point. I don't train to fight for a living. I have an 8 hour job, then I have my kung fu training, then I have business responsibilities and family responsibilities. Most of the time after my 8 hour job, I want to just relax. And do other things. If someone would pay me what I make now to train to fight, then yes. I would train to fight in MMA. Easily. But they don't so I won't. I'll only train to the level that I want to reach to be effective at dealing with someone on the street and to handle a few amateur fighters.

How does that prove your point? Yeah, you’re not a professional fighter, and neither am I. However if we were, I seriously doubt either of us would consider Jow Ga as something to invest our training time into.

If you want to see TMA fighters in MMA then you have first find someone interested in an TMA system and then that person has to be willing to put in that much work.

You’re simply not getting it for whatever reason; professional fighters would be interested in TMAs if those arts produced the desired RESULTS. They don’t, so the professional fighters go to arts that DO produce results.

The vast majority of people in BJJ have zero interest in MMA fighting, but professional fighters and MMA gyms still seek out Bjj coaches because of the results.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

why would I spend decades learning Hung Ga when I can get the same results much faster in western boxing?

Boxing is a pure striking art. Most CMA are the integration of both striking art and wrestling art. A CMA guy will know how to use a hook punch to set up an under hook, or use a uppercut to set up an over hook. The boxer doesn't.

The MA training path should be:

striking art -> striking art and wrestling art integration
wrestling art -> striking art and wrestling art integration

It should not be the other way around.

After my guys started to train Sanda (MMA without the ground game), they no longer have interest in the pure Chinese wrestling.

Going through the elementary school 6 times won't earn you a PhD degree. The MA PhD is striking art + wrestling art + ground game.