Occasional self defense rants - #1 mouth and feet

[Bill Bednarick]

The Mind is my weapon of choice.

No question about it for me.

I learned how manipulate situations to my advantage long before I received formal martial training and it is still the most used tool I have when faced with a conflict.

That's probably not what Lil' Johnny's mom is looking for when she shops for martial arts classes for him but it's worked for me for 40 years so I'm sold.

I can see it now...

But Mom Guru Bill said you gotta know how to lie.

But that's real and it works.

 

[Steel Tiger]

When anyone asks questions about self defense techniques or weapons it follows as the night the day and the lawyers an ambulance that someone will say something like this...

"The best way to fight is by not fighting."
"My greatest (weapon|technique) is my (mind|mouth|running shoes|calmness|selective resemblance to a bull elephant)."
"Martial arts isn't just about fighting."
"De-escalation."

Those of us who've been at this game for a little while all know and understand these things. It's just a tool, you're the weapon. Don't get into any fights you don't have to. The man who fights and runs away lives to sneak up behind his enemies when they don't expect it and bushwack them another day. Those who haven't will not appreciate the pearls of wisdom.

There's nothing wrong with a disclaimer or two. There's also nothing wrong with giving a straight answer to an honest question. You don't learn how to talk or emotionally de-escalate in almost any martial arts class. You don't practice running technique or E&E either. What people learn in martial arts classes is how to fight and how to deal with the aftermath of the fight if you have a particularly good teacher. So why do people insist on doing this? Because it's true, certainly. But some of it is a status game. The distributor of the rhetorical gems can feel superior to the newbie and make himself look wiser by making the other guy look naive. It's also a little insulting to tell someone "The question you asked isn't worth answering. I'll tell you what you should have asked." As Martha Stewart would say "And that's not a Good Thing."

If you rely on your jump spin triple somersault head-butt, say so. If the shillelagh is your pet weapon there's no reason to be ashamed of it. Nobody worth knowing is keeping score and thinking "Oooh, he didn't give an answer like an Enlightened Master would. Ten points off, and he can't be in The Club."

Is it possible, just possible, mind, that the person who asks questions about self-defence or weapons is actually interested in knowing about self-defence and weapons? Even if you do really think that you should think or run or whatever why not just answer the question?

Unfortunately, I think that a lot of martial artists have bought into the nonsense spouted by Hollywood about martial arts. "the True Warrior is a pacifist" Tellner wrote, but look at the men who founded the various arts. They were not pacifists! The sought combat to test and hone their skills.

The mind may well be the best weapon, but when someone asks about techniques just answer them.

 

[KenpoTex]

Is it possible, just possible, mind, that the person who asks questions about self-defence or weapons is actually interested in knowing about self-defence and weapons? Even if you do really think that you should think or run or whatever why not just answer the question?

Unfortunately, I think that a lot of martial artists have bought into the nonsense spouted by Hollywood about martial arts. "the True Warrior is a pacifist" Tellner wrote, but look at the men who founded the various arts. They were not pacifists! The sought combat to test and hone their skills.

The mind may well be the best weapon, but when someone asks about techniques just answer them.

umm...did you read the whole thread? Tellner was/is the one griping about people that automatically respond with a "just run" (or whatever) answer.

 

[Steel Tiger]

umm...did you read the whole thread? Tellner was/is the one griping about people that automatically respond with a "just run" (or whatever) answer.

Yes I did read the whole thread. I agree with what Tellner was saying, I may have worded things poorly. The point I was trying to make there was that the people we admire in the world of martial arts were not pacifists and, sadly, as Tellner said, a lot of people buy into that and take it to heart.

The point I was trying to make, and clearly failing, (it has been a long day at work) is that we should be honest in answering questions about what we do because someone might genuinely be interested.

 

[KenpoTex]

Yes I did read the whole thread. I agree with what Tellner was saying, I may have worded things poorly. The point I was trying to make there was that the people we admire in the world of martial arts were not pacifists and, sadly, as Tellner said, a lot of people buy into that and take it to heart.

The point I was trying to make, and clearly failing, (it has been a long day at work) is that we should be honest in answering questions about what we do because someone might genuinely be interested.

Okay, gotcha...we're on the same page now

 

[Steel Tiger]

Okay, gotcha...we're on the same page now

Excellent. Its good to know I can still make some sense after so much of the work day.

 

[CoryKS]

The problem comes from not knowing what assumptions are made in the initial question. If somebody asks a question about what to do when the SHTF, I don't respond with tips on avoidance or deescalation because my assumption is that the scenario has passed beyond that phase. That the person has already done what he/she could to avoid the situation and, for whatever reason, failed. We allow for that failure, otherwise we wouldn't train in MA. We'd just practice evasion/avoidance drills.

Last Fearner made a good point with his riddle. There's a flaw, though - the man with the hiccups may actually be thirsty. The bartender made an assumption about what the man wanted that could be incorrect.

 

[Grenadier]

Moderator's note:

Posts were split into this thread. Please continue any such discussions on that subject matter in that thread.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Moderator

 

[Xue Sheng]

If you rely on your jump spin triple somersault head-butt, say so. If the shillelagh is your pet weapon there's no reason to be ashamed of it. Nobody worth knowing is keeping score and thinking "Oooh, he didn't give an answer like an Enlightened Master would. Ten points off, and he can't be in The Club."

DAMN... Now you tell me

And after I just told someone to hit back and hit back hard too.....

And NOW I find I'm going to loose points.... SHEEESH!!!

You would THINK a fellow curmudgeon would have told me sooner....

Thanks tellner...THANKS A LOT.... and now HOW many points do I loose exactly

:uhyeah:

OK I will skulk back to my dark little corner of the world now.

EDIT

OK I lied I’m not going just yet

A fight is a serious thing not to be taken lightly but if it happens it happens. But there are times when people ask a leading question so they can justify going a beating the hell out of someone over what amounts to a load of ********. This is why I tend not to tell those I do not know or trust to go out and just punch someone in the head. And yes I did tell someone to hit back today…right here on MT.

I will reference my Sanda Sifu’s attitude about training here. He does not say Sanda is the best, most dangerous or even that it will make you the baddest martial artist to walk the earth. What he does say it that if you train it is not all that hard to become effective fairly fast and it is that reason he will not teach anyone that he does not know and trust. He does not want to be responsible for someone going out and beat up or hurt people just cuz.

It is this same reason I generally do not give direct answers to such questions.

 

[zDom]

Xue, there is this one particular dogwood tree around here that has been giving me some pretty hard looks. Advice?

(G,D & R )

 

[Sukerkin]

Just as an intriguing aside, how would you say a martial art such as the Katori Shinto ryu would fit into this? They dedicate themselves to the study of the lethal side of martial arts and yet have the philosophic mindset that if you have any other choice then you eschew violence.

You can tell from my question that I have my own views on this subject {after all who doesn't :lol:}. Just to be plain, I do not agree that martial arts training is primarily aimed at the projection of violence. Self defence might be a better term I suppose.

Regardless, tho' that might be what brings many people into the MA fold, the ability to open a can of whoopass on someone is not the whole story. If responsibility is not taught along with combat then where you end up is a different place than if you learn that violence is not a first resort but rather a last.

 

[MrE2Me2]

Hello Tellner,

You started this thread by posting, “There's nothing wrong with a disclaimer or two. There's also nothing wrong with giving a straight answer to an honest question.”

I would agree with a stipulation. Learning when and where to use each must be emphasized.

For example; one of my instructors was a tough guy. Eventually, he burned out and left the martial arts. But before he did, he turned really mean. We’d be going half power and without warning he’d tag us hard.

Complaints were greeted with denial and indifference. He could get away with it, so he did.
Finally, he tried it on someone who was ready for him. Worse, he did this in front of the man who has awarded him his black belt.

I’d like to say that he was the exception. But there were several students and teachers like him.
When the changes finally occurred, it was a change towards strength governed by courtesy that did it. Until we all were both strong and courteous, there was a tendency to be too hard.

Without a clear boundary on how bad violence can be, there can be a tendency towards brutality during training.

Regards, MrE2Me2

 

[Steel Tiger]

Just as an intriguing aside, how would you say a martial art such as the Katori Shinto ryu would fit into this? They dedicate themselves to the study of the lethal side of martial arts and yet have the philosophic mindset that if you have any other choice then you eschew violence.

You can tell from my question that I have my own views on this subject {after all who doesn't :lol:}. Just to be plain, I do not agree that martial arts training is primarily aimed at the projection of violence. Self defence might be a better term I suppose.

Regardless, tho' that might be what brings many people into the MA fold, the ability to open a can of whoopass on someone is not the whole story. If responsibility is not taught along with combat then where you end up is a different place than if you learn that violence is not a first resort but rather a last.

Discussing techniques and the philosophy associated with them is quite different to dodging the question with answers like, "the best technique is de-escalation" or " the mind is the greatest weapon". In one case you are putting the techniques into perspective and trying to explain the why of the way things are done. In the other, you are just dodging the question and building your own ego to boot.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

You punch the guy out, how's that?

 

[KenpoTex]

just bumping this one back to the top...

the "just run away" or "just deescalate verbally" crap kinda died down after this thread but now it's starting up yet again.

 

[thardey]

I've been asked to teach self-defense more and more at my school, and I'm really enjoying it.

But I agree with Tellner's rant, if the answer was to run away, then we all should buy running shoes and be done with it. Me, I know physically that I'm not likely to outrun someone who's likely to attack me.

So, in the self-defense stuff, say I'm teaching knife defense, I teach the technique, then, after everybody's feeling comfortable with it, I bring them in close and talk to them about it. I point out that if the guy responds this or that way, you're home free, but! if he responds this way, you're in trouble. That said, this is not a 100% guaranteed technique. Use it at your own risk.

Since it is a gamble, it is better not to have to try it in the first place, but if your options are try it and maybe escape, maybe get killed, or don't try it, and probably get killed, here's the best way to try it.

The part that always worries me are the people who still believe that karate is some kind of "magic ability" that makes you invincible. You show them some tech, and are confident that it is a good tech, they take that "good" tech, and their imagination transforms it into a "undefeatable" tech.

Those are the people who are targeted by the new "up and coming" RBSD guys you see on YouTube. They take a "good" tech, then point out it's weakness, then declare it a "bad" tech because it has weaknesses. Buy their program and they will teach you the "real" tech that they say has no weaknesses.

People with that mentality need to be taught that every tech has a counter, and that every counter has a counter. Nothing is guaranteed.

 

[Sukerkin]

Quite right, especially on that very important last sentence, Thardey.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The part that always worries me are the people who still believe that karate is some kind of "magic ability" that makes you invincible.

Well of course Karate does not give you "magic ability"... everyone knows that... for that you need CMA or SANDA :EG: :uhyeah:

My view on all of this simple

Run if you can, if you can’t fight.

If it is at all possible avoid the confrontation and if that means running then run. But be very aware that I said "if at all possible" If it is not possible then you fight.

But I do not need to stand there to prove anything to anybody by fighting and beating someone up or getting beat up so if I can avoid it by removing myself from the situation I will do just that.

 

[thardey]

Well of course Karate does not give you "magic ability"... everyone knows that... for that you need CMA or SANDA :EG: :uhyeah:

My view on all of this simple

Run if you can, if you can’t fight.

If it is at all possible avoid the confrontation and if that means running then run. But be very aware that I said "if at all possible" If it is not possible then you fight.

But I do not need to stand there to prove anything to anybody by fighting and beating someone up or getting beat up so if I can avoid it by removing myself from the situation I will do just that.

Very true, and I don't disagree in the slightest. I think the problem is when genuinely interested people ask, OK what if I can't run? How do I fight?

One common response to that question that I've run into while researching what I want to teach is (again, a good answer to a different question, but is now a cliche) "Don't get bogged down with the "what-if" monkeys. You're just trying to manufacture a situation where you want to prove you're a bad-***!"

That particular response to a legitimate question helps no one.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I went to a Bagua seminar many years ago and the Sifu told us a story about his Sifu. I will keep it short, believe me it was a long story.

He asked his Sifu about fighting a local bully and his sifus response was always "don’t fight". After multiple scenarios he hit on one that made his sifu say “Then you fight… but make sure you kill him or he may come back to get you later” the sifu that was telling me this responded with “I don’t want to kill him... just teach him a lesson” His sifu said “oh and make sure you kill his entire family too or that may look for you to get revenge” to which the response was “I don’t want to kill anyone” and of course his Sifu’s response was again “Then don’t fight”.

OK that may or may not be a little extreme; frankly I think it make the seriousness of fighting and its consequences pretty clear. But my jujitsu sansei use to always tell us about the times he ran or the times he avoided fights not the fights he won. And he made sure we understood the seriousness and the consequences of fighting. But he also made sure that if we had no choice we could fight.