Occasional self defense rants - #1 mouth and feet

[tellner]

When anyone asks questions about self defense techniques or weapons it follows as the night the day and the lawyers an ambulance that someone will say something like this...

"The best way to fight is by not fighting."
"My greatest (weapon|technique) is my (mind|mouth|running shoes|calmness|selective resemblance to a bull elephant)."
"Martial arts isn't just about fighting."
"De-escalation."

Those of us who've been at this game for a little while all know and understand these things. It's just a tool, you're the weapon. Don't get into any fights you don't have to. The man who fights and runs away lives to sneak up behind his enemies when they don't expect it and bushwack them another day. Those who haven't will not appreciate the pearls of wisdom.

There's nothing wrong with a disclaimer or two. There's also nothing wrong with giving a straight answer to an honest question. You don't learn how to talk or emotionally de-escalate in almost any martial arts class. You don't practice running technique or E&E either. What people learn in martial arts classes is how to fight and how to deal with the aftermath of the fight if you have a particularly good teacher. So why do people insist on doing this? Because it's true, certainly. But some of it is a status game. The distributor of the rhetorical gems can feel superior to the newbie and make himself look wiser by making the other guy look naive. It's also a little insulting to tell someone "The question you asked isn't worth answering. I'll tell you what you should have asked." As Martha Stewart would say "And that's not a Good Thing."

If you rely on your jump spin triple somersault head-butt, say so. If the shillelagh is your pet weapon there's no reason to be ashamed of it. Nobody worth knowing is keeping score and thinking "Oooh, he didn't give an answer like an Enlightened Master would. Ten points off, and he can't be in The Club."

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Ive noticed that before, its not enough to answer a question, we have to pose for history as well

 

[stone_dragone]

As I see it, the problem lies not in their elusive answer but in the false humility that is the source of that answer.

There are schools that teach de-escalation tactics and things of that nature as part of their curriculuum, and they need to be praised. Honestly, the first technique that I ever learned in class was the tactical retreat. Everything else was in case that didn't work out so well.

 

[JBrainard]

My teacher hasn't talked about de-escalation much at all, although he did show us a nice kick/step on the knee that flows right into running like hell.

 

[Touch Of Death]

My teacher hasn't talked about de-escalation much at all, although he did show us a nice kick/step on the knee that flows right into running like hell.

De escelation can occur simply by standing your ground, and I don't mean aggressivly. It all starts with attitude. I like to use the Chicken in the pen analogy. None of the chickens are really friends, but they will gang up on the weakest chicken. Part of you responsibility to your self is to not appear to be the weakest chicken. You need to keep you head and eyes up. Pay attention to your surroundings and be ready with a game plan. Then work on diplomacy.
sean

 

[tellner]

Marc MacYoung has done some good stuff on the subject, particularly his Professional's Guide to Ending Violence Quickly. The police community seems to think highly of the Verbal Judo program.

 

[Kenzan]

I think that it's possible that to many people, the Martial Arts isn't about fighting, and is all about development of the mind, as well as de-escalation.
I know this because I try to live it myself.
Certainly we can talk about the specifics and weaponry of our chosen arts all day, but I've personally found that when all things are equal, (and also mostly when they are not equal,) the person who wins a fight for survival is the one that has the strongest mindful will to do so.
Therefore to me, what sort of weapon I use isn't as important as having a certain level of mental readiness which I find comfortable in any given situation.
Also, in my specific art, Kendo, it begins with 100% of the physical, but I'm finding out that it slowly graduates to almost an all mental game, which I feel makes sense.

-That is, until the law allows me to drive a tank wherever I go.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think that it's possible that to many people, the Martial Arts isn't about fighting, and is all about development of the mind, as well as de-escalation.
I know this because I try to live it myself.
Certainly we can talk about the specifics and weaponry of our chosen arts all day, but I've personally found that when all things are equal, (and also mostly when they are not equal,) the person who wins a fight for survival is the one that has the strongest mindful will to do so.
Therefore to me, what sort of weapon I use isn't as important as having a certain level of mental readiness which I find comfortable in any given situation.
Also, in my specific art, Kendo, it begins with 100% of the physical, but I'm finding out that it slowly graduates to almost an all mental game, which I feel makes sense.

-That is, until the law allows me to drive a tank wherever I go.

There is no such thing as 100% physical.
Sean

 

[Kenzan]

There is no such thing as 100% physical.
Sean

I think you know what I meant :jediduel:

 

[tellner]

There's something that I used to think of as mysticall ******** until I realized that it was the simple truth. In the beginning the body trains the mind. At the end the mind directs the body. Insight and understanding are important, but it's learned best by starting with the physical. What the body does is remembered and has a profound effect on how the mind works. Later on when you have skills the mind can call on them at need.

Another one of those woo-woo things that turns out to be G-d's own plain truth is that you can do it from the bottom up or the heart out but not from the head down. It starts with training the body which alters how you relate to your body, how you react and a thousand other things. Or you start with the heart. Someone who has good intention and motivation honestly doesn't need that much technique. It's just a matter of presenting tools that will help him or her carry out that will. Start with too much cogitating and analyzing and you'll get nowhere fast. Later on there's time to fight smarter and to get your strategies in line. The mind is important, but honestly in the three legged race of knowledge, skill and understanding it's more important to get the first two sets of ducks in a row before spending too much time on the last one.

Mu-shin, theory, advanced strategy and clever tactics are all great. They're far behind having efficient motion, getting your intention set and keeping it where it needs to be and keeping your training. Once you've got those, and once they've guaranteed that you will spend your time in the real world instead of the world inside your head it's time to work on the whole mind thing and concentrate on directing the body with it.

 

[Last Fearner]

When anyone asks questions about self defense techniques or weapons it follows as the night the day and the lawyers an ambulance that someone will say something like this...

"The best way to fight is by not fighting."
"My greatest (weapon|technique) is my (mind|mouth|running shoes|calmness|selective resemblance to a bull elephant)."
"Martial arts isn't just about fighting."
"De-escalation."

So why do people insist on doing this?

A man walked into a bar. He asked the bar tender for a glass of water. The bar tender reached beneath the counter, pulled out a gun, and pointed it at the man. The man smiled, thanked the bar tender, and walked out of the bar.

Why?

 

[Touch Of Death]

A man walked into a bar. He asked the bar tender for a glass of water. The bar tender reached beneath the counter, pulled out a gun, and pointed it at the man. The man smiled, thanked the bar tender, and walked out of the bar.

Why?

Bartenders hate doing free things for people.
Sean

 

[FearlessFreep]

A man walked into a bar. He asked the bar tender for a glass of water. The bar tender reached beneath the counter, pulled out a gun, and pointed it at the man. The man smiled, thanked the bar tender, and walked out of the bar.

Why?

The man had the hiccups.

 

[tellner]

Last, if you're going to hijack a thread at least try to be interesting and clever. That was just lame and stupid.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Last, if you're going to hijack a thread at least try to be interesting and clever. That was just lame and stupid.

And further more; I don't get it.
Sean

 

[KenpoTex]

I have to agree with Tellner on this one. In fact, I was considering bringing up this very topic right before I saw this thread.

I get really tired of hearing this stuff every time someone asks a question. It's to the point where I watch the threads wondering how long it's going to be before we hear the "just run" or "just talk your way out" mantras. A good example would be the recent thread about your "preferred weapon."

As has been stated. We should all be smart enough to figure out that if we can avoid a fight, we should do so. However, if every fight could be avoided by verbal de-escalation or by running away then we wouldn't need to train in self defense. We could all go buy a copy of Verbal Judo and a pair of running shoes and we'd be set.

AFAIC, we should "sticky" a disclaimer at the top of the forum that would included all this stuff. Then we could use the threads to discuss tactics and techniques without worrying about having them cluttered up with all these pointless "just run away" posts.

 

[tradrockrat]

This is interesting because I was feeling like, "How many times can we all say just run away before everyone stops posting in the self defense thread?"

I know for a fact that I have said many times things like "I do A and B so that I can run away." or, "I would try to avoid / deescalate / etc. ..."

But eventually we all need to accept the fact that maybe - just maybe - the poster of the question knows this as well as we do and just accept the unspoken understanding that we've gone past deescalation and avoidance and are at that pioint where violence is unavoidable and answer the question in that light.

JMHO.

 

[Last Fearner]

A man walked into a bar. He asked the bar tender for a glass of water. The bar tender reached beneath the counter, pulled out a gun, and pointed it at the man. The man smiled, thanked the bar tender, and walked out of the bar.

Why?

The man had the hiccups.

Yes, FearlessFreep, you are correct.

Last, if you're going to hijack a thread at least try to be interesting and clever. That was just lame and stupid.

tellner, with all due respect to you sir, I was not hijacking this thread. You asked a question, and I was answering it in my own way. My response was neither lame nor stupid. It was a philosophical riddle designed to promote the kind of thought provoking exchange that I find more beneficial to a student than to simply give them the answer. Perhaps your Martial Art training does not work this way. Perhaps your instructor(s) did not teach you by using this method, but you asked the question, "why" so there is my answer.

My explanation is this. The man in the riddle asked for something. The bartender knew what he wanted, had the item the man asked for, and could have simply given it to him. However, the bartender was also insightful as to "why" the man wanted the water. Not because he was thirsty, but because he had a problem he wanted resolved. The bartender chose an alternative method, and ultimately gave the man the results he wanted. For this, the man was grateful, smiled and left the bar contented.

While I would not recommend pulling a gun on someone to cure the hiccups, or to make a point, the lesson behind the riddle is valid, and specifically answers the question you posed when you first started this thread. There are instructors whose priority it is to deal first and foremost with the student's mind. Shape their character, and be sure that they are trustworthy enough to handle the knowledge and power of Martial Art fighting skills.

There are times when a student asks for something, but an insightful instructor knows that what the student really needs is the tools to discover the answer. The student might be seeking something that is wrong for them, so the instructor will guide them to the right path. The student might be barking up the wrong tree, so to speak.

A good instructor will know when to give a straight answer, and when to guide a student to wisdom of their own. It's a process. The problem is that many novice, and some internet gurus don't have this advanced training, and they are simply attempting to look "wise" by doing this at the wrong times, or far too often. This is where many advanced practitioners here get annoyed because they read the same cliches over and over.

You asked why people do that, that is my answer. If you don't care for how I presented my answer, I can appreciate that. If you didn't understand why I presented that way, all you have to do is ask. If you don't want me to reply to your questions or participate in your threads then just say so, and I will avoid them with pleasure, but please do not insult me. I might might not be the kind of instructor you like, but there might be a pearl of wisdom or two that I can share with those who are interested in hearing my perspective.

Sorry to have disturbed your thread! :asian:
Peace!
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Marginal]

Is it a question of cliches, common knowledge that needs no repetition, or is it simply a case of the people saying "de-escalate/run away" are buzzkills?

 

[tellner]

It's neither, really. There are certainly people who are too eager to fight. You need to get rid of them or slow them down a bit. Many of them are kids who don't have fully developed values or common sense. Saying "Your most important weapon is your mind," or "Think before talking, talk before running, run before fighting," are very appropriate for children or for adolescents who haven't completely weathered the hormone storm. But a thirty year old woman with two kids, a degree and a job? It's a tad insulting to tell it to her as if she didn't know.

It also plays into the cliches (and BS) about how "the True Warrior(tm) is a pacifist". It's also a great way of patting oneself on the back if one's **** is weak. The fact that it will show up in any thread about fighting, self defense, technique, martial skills or anything even remotely related is telling.

The point remains - People know how to run. People who don't normally get in a lot of fights know how to de-escalate and back off. What they don't tend to know is how to fight scientifically. That's where martial arts teachers come in.

While some very good teachers are trained in conflict resolution they are rarer than NRA members contributing to Chuck Schumer. Martial arts curricula simply do not specialize in this. If you can fight you can choose not to. If you can't you don't have the choice. One hopes that your training will be good enough to give you that choice.