Number of KKW BB's & 9th Dans worldwide?

[Manny]

Low kicks are invaluable techs inside slef defense and martial arts. A low kick is not as easy to brab that a high one, and breaking the enemy's basis/foundation is a key elemento to keep it at bay and to finish a fight quick.

Manny

 

[puunui]

Interesting. The school where I learned does practice knee level kicks, though not to a partner's knee. Daniel

It is GM JI Han Jae's philosophy that we should never permanently injure someone. He never advocates the breaking or injuring of joints. Instead of the knee, we would aim the same kick at area above the knee on the upper thigh.

 

[puunui]

Low kicks are invaluable techs inside slef defense and martial arts. A low kick is not as easy to brab that a high one, and breaking the enemy's basis/foundation is a key elemento to keep it at bay and to finish a fight quick. Manny

We practice a lot of low kicks. We just don't aim them at the knee.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It is GM JI Han Jae's philosophy that we should never permanently injure someone. He never advocates the breaking or injuring of joints. Instead of the knee, we would aim the same kick at area above the knee on the upper thigh.

That's also a nice target too! Though I will say that about twenty five years ago, I used the low side kick to the knee of a knife wielding would-be mugger. No idea if his injuries were permanent; I got the heck outta there; I have an aversion to being cut. Only had TKD and some Shotokan training at that time.

KJN Kim does not share that philosophy. He has a fiarly eclectic background, so I will no speculate as to why he differs. I can only say that he teaches without a whole lot of regard for the idea of sparing the bad guy permanent injury, though he isn't encouraging students to utterly destroy an attacker either.

Prior to his breaking off and going independent, he was IHF.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

KJN Kim does not share that philosophy. He has a fiarly eclectic background, so I will no speculate as to why he differs. I can only say that he teaches without a whole lot of regard for the idea of sparing the bad guy permanent injury, though he isn't encouraging students to utterly destroy an attacker either.

Not just bad guys, but your training partners as well. GM Ji's thinking is that you do not wish to permanently injure someone because when they get old, they will hurt in that joint and will remember you negatively for the rest of their lives.

Prior to his breaking off and going independent, he was IHF.

I have an IHF background too, and have been an IHF "Regional Chief Instructor" since 1990. My original teacher studied with GM MYONG Jae Nam when both were living and teaching in Incheon. My original instructor was also not into injuring joints or bones permanently. Bad karma. GM Myong was a highly intelligent, very creative, very generous man. I can't see him into hurting people permanently either.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not just bad guys, but your training partners as well. GM Ji's thinking is that you do not wish to permanently injure someone because when they get old, they will hurt in that joint and will remember you negatively for the rest of their lives.

We don't actually kick our partners in the knees. We practice low line, midline, and high line kicking drills, both in the air, with focus targets, and with a Wavemaster-ish thing that goes all the way to the floor and is about five feet in height. With partners, any 'knee' kicks are only suggested and not actually delivered.

I have an IHF background too, and have been an IHF "Regional Chief Instructor" since 1990. My original teacher studied with GM MYONG Jae Nam when both were living and teaching in Incheon. My original instructor was also not into injuring joints or bones permanently. Bad karma. GM Myong was a highly intelligent, very creative, very generous man. I can't see him into hurting people permanently either.

My KJN as well, according to him, though I doubt that that is where he picked up his SD philosophy. Both of the senior instructors at our school were also IHF and the curriculum that KMA has in place is a combination of techniques that the three of them knew and stuff that KJN Kim learned elsewhere.

Just to be clear, he does not make a point of telling us to destroy an attacker's knees. He simply calls out 'knee kick' 'body kick' and 'head kick' in kicking drills. Perhaps if his English were better he'd articulate the same sentiment of kicking above the knee instead of the knee itself? Don't know. I know that he expressly forbids actually kicking your partner in the knees for the very reasons that you describe in your first paragraph.

An aside, do you know GM Hee Kwan Lee? One of our former instructors opened her own school and has affiliated with him. She speaks very highly of him.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Just to be clear, he does not make a point of telling us to destroy an attacker's knees. He simply calls out 'knee kick' 'body kick' and 'head kick' in kicking drills. Perhaps if his English were better he'd articulate the same sentiment of kicking above the knee instead of the knee itself? Don't know. I know that he expressly forbids actually kicking your partner in the knees for the very reasons that you describe in your first paragraph.

Perhaps it is something to ask him the next time you see him. I would be interested in hearing what he has to say. I hear so many Hapkidoin say "break his wrist" or "break this" or "break that", like they never even think about long term issues and considerations. I think it is an important philosophical point, the center really for my Hapkido and my martial arts in general, harming yourself and others.

An aside, do you know GM Hee Kwan Lee? One of our former instructors opened her own school and has affiliated with him. She speaks very highly of him.

Name sounds familiar, but I don't think I have met him. Sorry.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Perhaps it is something to ask him the next time you see him. I would be interested in hearing what he has to say. I hear so many Hapkidoin say "break his wrist" or "break this" or "break that", like they never even think about long term issues and considerations. I think it is an important philosophical point, the center really for my Hapkido and my martial arts in general, harming yourself and others.

Up until fairly recently, I have had the mentality that if I am attacked, the attacker earns whatever I should choose to dish out. Probably some posts on here to that effect if you dig enough.

But what then? The guy I had to kick years ago didn't suffer a broken knee and somehow, it all worked out. Shocked him, pained him, but I hadn't gone for the break. Didn't need to.

No need to inflict unnecessary injury on another. That is one of the things that led me to hapkido; I liked the much more graded level of response that it offered. I could do more than just strike people.

The primary goal in sparring of non-contact knee level kicks is to teach the student that the knee is a vulnerable target. Realistically, it is simply a low line kick. Doesn't have to be the knee specifically.

My comment to Djinx is accurate; the knee does make a nice target, but it was mainly a tongue in cheek response to his comment about old guys who cannot kick above knee level.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

But what then? The guy I had to kick years ago didn't suffer a broken knee and somehow, it all worked out. Shocked him, pained him, but I hadn't gone for the break. Didn't need to.

I think those knee kicks are overrated anyway. I probably told this story before but one of my high school friends was facing this guy he was fighting, when the other guy lunged in with a low side kick to my friend's knee. The kick bounced off, the other guy looked shocked with his mouth open that his death kick didn't work, and my friend knocked him out with one overhand right. It was right out of a Bruce Lee movie.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Goes to show that there are no silver bullet techniques that don't involve pistols and silver bullets. Some people think that groin kicks are magical, but there are some guys who will just get madder.

I had kicked the inside of the guy's right knee with my right foot, forcing it out and causing him to fall down. Element of surprise was definitely a big factor. Fortunately, it all worked out and we all went home in one piece.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

No need to inflict unnecessary injury on another. That is one of the things that led me to hapkido; I liked the much more graded level of response that it offered. I could do more than just strike people.

I daresay such an ethos is much more universally followed in aikido across teachers than within hapkido. To be frank, the hapkidoin I have met in person believe in using a level of response needed to end an altercation safely, with a lot of person leeway in what that "level" is. Certainly breaking someone else's joints could be a part of that.

I do respect what Puunui is describing however. It's a sentiment I've heard more than a few times in aikido circles.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm not averse to using strikes in self defense, nor am I averse to the idea of causing permanent injury to an attacker if it comes to that, but I prefer to avoid it if at all possible.

My primary goal in self defense is to extracate myself from the situation, not to demolish my attackers. If that can be done without the use of force at all, then that is preferable. Otherwise, I will only what is neccesary to rectify the situation and go home.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Also, I suspect that in the KKW, four year old pum holders are very rare.

I don't know if it is rare, but what I do know is that there are many more Kukkiwon dan holders than there are poom holders. Twice as many.

 

[puunui]

No need to inflict unnecessary injury on another. That is one of the things that led me to hapkido; I liked the much more graded level of response that it offered. I could do more than just strike people.

Exactly. One of the things about Hapkido is the idea of a graded response. Not everything geared towards a self defense situation has to be a death blow, which I think is how many people train for. It's either zero or 100, no in between.

 

[puunui]

I do respect what Puunui is describing however. It's a sentiment I've heard more than a few times in aikido circles.

Not only aikido. I think that higher level martial artists in general evolve to this stage of thinking. I also think it is difficult to evolve to this if your main and unchanging focus is to constantly think about confronting the big bad felon, with the mentality to simply "survive" in a no rules situation.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Do not kill when maining is enough.
Do not maim when hurting is enough.
Do not hurt when holding is enough.
The mightiest warrior is he who never has to hurt another.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think those knee kicks are overrated anyway. I probably told this story before but one of my high school friends was facing this guy he was fighting, when the other guy lunged in with a low side kick to my friend's knee. The kick bounced off, the other guy looked shocked with his mouth open that his death kick didn't work, and my friend knocked him out with one overhand right. It was right out of a Bruce Lee movie.

I have much experience in the health and fitness game having worked for years at my father's gym and I have a background in human movements. I can tell you now, any decent kick to the right part of the knee and there is only one result, a full knee reconstruction.

 

[puunui]

I'm not averse to using strikes in self defense

Funny, but we practice all these joint locks and throws in GM Ji's class, but when you listen to his stories about fighting, it always involves him striking someone, never joint lock or throws.

 

[terryl965]

I don't know if it is rare, but what I do know is that there are many more Kukkiwon dan holders than there are poom holders. Twice as many.

That would probaly be they change over at 15 from poom to dan

 

[Archtkd]

Not only aikido. I think that higher level martial artists in general evolve to this stage of thinking. I also think it is difficult to evolve to this if your main and unchanging focus is to constantly think about confronting the big bad felon, with the mentality to simply "survive" in a no rules situation.

I think that evolution also happens in areas of organized armed combat. It's a philosophy that elite military units are inculcated with It's what gives members of those elite forces the ability to enter a dangerous, place take out armed bad guys with precision, while at the same time protecting women and children. One of my students, Eric Greitens, writes about this in his new book, "The Heart and The Fist: The Education of a Humanitaran, The Making of A Navy Seal. http://www.theheartandthefist.com/