45 Degree kick

[andyjeffries]

I've heard talk about students coming over to a new club and the new club has to untrain them from performing 45 degree kicks (Beet-chagi). At the club I train at we do 45 degree kicks, but I'm soon starting my own club. I also practice doing more round-kick* style as I know it's more modern and I understand the reasoning behind not doing 45 degree kicks (elbows, more power). However, before I drop them from my newly created syllabus I wanted to ask the group:

Do you still practice/teach half-turning kicks?

When I do a 90 degree turning kick (round kick to the body) I tend not to turn my supporting foot all the way to face the rear (but do when kicking to the head). Is this how people generally do it?

* I hate the term roundhouse kick - probably because that was always the term Karate used near where I live and it was always completely different to Taekwondo's turning kick. It's probably a hang-up I can lose now, but I'm used to hating the term ;-)

 

[Touch Of Death]

Roundhouse means you are kicking around something. What's to hate?
Sean

 

[granfire]

45/90 degrees?


(90 degree being bringing your back leg around for a kick? What 45 degrees?)

I never paid much attention to the degrees of kicking:
Front leg, back leg, and spinning/turning, never past a full rotation.


But you should take care of that round kick pivot leg. I do believe - or so I have been taught - it's the proper mechanics that might help prevent injury down the road. Not to mention it telegraphs how high you are going to kick.

 

[andyjeffries]

45/90 degrees?

(90 degree being bringing your back leg around for a kick? What 45 degrees?)

It refers to the angle from knee to shin from vertical when the knee is forward and chambered (just the split second before the extension in to the kick).

I never paid much attention to the degrees of kicking:
Front leg, back leg, and spinning/turning, never past a full rotation.

But you should take care of that round kick pivot leg. I do believe - or so I have been taught - it's the proper mechanics that might help prevent injury down the road. Not to mention it telegraphs how high you are going to kick.

We only turn the standing foot at the last split second of extension anyway - up until that moment it's in the same position as a body section kick. I can't see anything wrong with having the foot pointed to the side when kicking to the body, it's no worse than standing with your feet apart, both feet facing forward so the angle between your legs is 90-110 degrees. Quite comfortable

 

[Earl Weiss]

* I hate the term roundhouse kick - probably because that was always the term Karate used near where I live and it was always completely different to Taekwondo's turning kick. It's probably a hang-up I can lose now, but I'm used to hating the term ;-)

KArate may have used it but they got it from early boxing. When a boxer / fighter has their guard / hands up that was referred to as "The house" . A punch that hooked around the guard to the side of the head went "Around the House" = " 'Round house".

The turning / roundhouse kick did the same. Bill Wallace kicked me in the head several times. Took me a while to figure out his mastery in part was a foot position with the ankle bent 90 degrees instead of straight, allowing it to go around the guard and make contact with the toes of the boot.

 

[ATC]

Not sure why anyone would unteach the 45 degree kick, it is just another kick to use when needed. Both kicks have their place and should be used in their own situations.

The 45 or half turn kick is a great setup kick. It is also use when doing a double as the first kick cannot be a full turn or your double will be slow and sloppy. The second kick in the double kick is the full turn of the kick as first kick is the setup for the second kick.

Just my take on the half turn vs. full turn. They are just two different kicks to me.

 

[Manny]

I staill teach and use the peet-chagui, this is a fast kick aimed to the abdomen or floating ribs, even the kidney area in self defense situation or even to the legs in self defense situacion as a low kick, the full roundhouse kick (dollyo-chagui) needs more tha 45º to be performed well to the head.

The peet-chagui and the dolyo-chagui are a little similar as they are roud/roundhouse kicks however the way to send them and the areas areas of impact are not the same.

One is faster the other is deeper.

Manny

 

[puunui]

Not sure why anyone would unteach the 45 degree kick, it is just another kick to use when needed. Both kicks have their place and should be used in their own situations.

If you learn the 45 first, then it is very difficult to do a proper roundhouse. It is not so much unlearning as the 45 creating a bad habit when trying to do a hip turn roundhouse. If you learn a proper roundhouse first, then the 45 is no problem.

The 45 or half turn kick is a great setup kick. It is also use when doing a double as the first kick cannot be a full turn or your double will be slow and sloppy. The second kick in the double kick is the full turn of the kick as first kick is the setup for the second kick.

I disagree. I think doing the 45 on a double is probably the worst time to do it. On a double kick, the first kicks should actually be harder than the second kick. The point of double, at least originally, was to check your opponent and stun him momentarily so you can set up the second scoring kick. You want the first kick to be hard to prevent or impede a counter hook or back kick. So many times I see players do a light first kick and they get immediately countered with a quick back kick or jump back kick. Better to do the first kick hard on a double, or just kick hard to the back side and then follow with a roundhouse with the other leg if they move back.

This is over and above the argument that 45 kick doesn't score on LaJust, allegedly because the foot sensors don't make good contact with the hogu sensors.

 

[ATC]

I disagree. I think doing the 45 on a double is probably the worst time to do it. On a double kick, the first kicks should actually be harder than the second kick.

Not how I was taught or how we teach it. For us the first kick is a 60 to 70% power 45 (low to the butt or hip area) then a rebound and full turn into the second kick at 100% power. As we teach the first kick is nothing but a distration. Now there are time when you do put the first kick at the same level but the same 70/100 and trun techniques still apply. Just how it is taught at our dojang and by our Sabum's.

 

[puunui]

Not how I was taught or how we teach it. For us the first kick is a 60 to 70% power 45 (low to the butt or hip area) then a rebound and full turn into the second kick at 100% power. As we teach the first kick is nothing but a distration. Now there are time when you do put the first kick at the same level but the same 70/100 and trun techniques still apply. Just how it is taught at our dojang and by our Sabum's.

Who taught that to your Sabums? You can do it that way, many people do, but it does increase the probability of a quick back kick or spin hook kick counter dramatically. As long as you are aware of that and accept that. The whole point of double kick being developed in the first place back in the early/mid 80's was to take that probability away, especially from a retreating opponent.

 

[puunui]

The peet-chagui and the dolyo-chagui are a little similar as they are roud/roundhouse kicks however the way to send them and the areas areas of impact are not the same. One is faster the other is deeper.

Peet Chagi is not faster than a full roundhouse, although it may seem that way. If anything, the roundhouse kick is faster.

 

[puunui]

Do you still practice/teach half-turning kicks?

No. The only time it comes up is to the face, when doing drills on the inside, or if your opponent is bent over for some reason. But you don't need to practice the kick for those situations, because it will naturally come out, especially if you grew up on 45 kicks. 45 degree peet chagi is the absolute hardest bad habit to break. Once that's ingrained, you have to work real hard to overcome it.

 

[Manny]

Peet Chagi is not faster than a full roundhouse, although it may seem that way. If anything, the roundhouse kick is faster.

FOR ME peet chagui is a faster kick than the full roundhose kick to the head, FOR YOU not. You are faster with the full roundhouse to the head, good for you!!! For me and for some other martial arts budies who are competitors it's easier to score with a peetchagui than with a dolyo chagui to the head.

Thank you.

Manny

 

[Manny]

The 45 or half turn kick is a great setup kick. It is also use when doing a double as the first kick cannot be a full turn or your double will be slow and sloppy. The second kick in the double kick is the full turn of the kick as first kick is the setup for the second kick

We do use the 45º kick as a set up for doing double kicks too.

Manny

 

[puunui]

FOR ME peet chagui is a faster kick than the full roundhose kick to the head, FOR YOU not. You are faster with the full roundhouse to the head, good for you!!! For me and for some other martial arts budies who are competitors it's easier to score with a peetchagui than with a dolyo chagui to the head.

To the head? That isn't what you said before. You said you aim the peet chagi at the abdomen or floating ribs or even the kidney area or even to the legs in self defense.

I staill teach and use the peet-chagui, this is a fast kick aimed to the abdomen or floating ribs, even the kidney area in self defense situation or even to the legs in self defense situacion as a low kick, the full roundhouse kick (dollyo-chagui) needs more tha 45º to be performed well to the head.

 

[armortkd]

Not how I was taught or how we teach it. For us the first kick is a 60 to 70% power 45 (low to the butt or hip area) then a rebound and full turn into the second kick at 100% power. As we teach the first kick is nothing but a distration. Now there are time when you do put the first kick at the same level but the same 70/100 and trun techniques still apply. Just how it is taught at our dojang and by our Sabum's.

I follow that same method as you Andrew! Double Kick has evolved from it's beginnings. 1985 Worlds saw a Han Jae-Koo kicking everyone with Double Kick. Going 100% on the 1st kick doesn't make sense since you have to roll your hips with the level of athletes these days. The "set up" with the 1st kick is to hit kidney side so the opponent doesn't likely be triggered to do a Back Kick or Spin Hook Kick. When players get lazy and a skip-up motion, that's when the opponent will read it and response with a Back Kick.

 

[PooterMan]

I'm not sure about the whole 45 degree kick....I was always taught a roundhouse was hip rolled over, foot at 90 degree angle. If I did a roundhouse at a 45 angle I'd get yelled at ;-)
On a double kick I can see the first kick being a distraction (say 40percent power) to get the person to drop their hand/elbow, then following with a full force true roundhouse to the head.
I could see 45 degrees the other way (inside to out) as a bit cha ki. But even those are hard on my old knees. Mine are more like 5 degrees, 6 if I'm stretched out. :deadhorse

 

[puunui]

I follow that same method as you Andrew! Double Kick has evolved from it's beginnings. 1985 Worlds saw a Han Jae-Koo kicking everyone with Double Kick.

He actually started doing that at 1983 Worlds.

Going 100% on the 1st kick doesn't make sense since you have to roll your hips with the level of athletes these days.

It doesn't make sense if you are used to kicking the 45 and not the full hip turn roundhouse. Kicking 45 to the backside is how most people injure their insteps on their opponent's elbow.

The "set up" with the 1st kick is to hit kidney side so the opponent doesn't likely be triggered to do a Back Kick or Spin Hook Kick.

Exactly, but if you hit the first kick soft, then all it does is trigger the back kick response. Back Kick or spin hook counter to double is a common hogu drill, something elite athletes train for. It is or should be as common a hogu drill as back kick counter to roundhouse to the front side.

 

[d1jinx]

back when people started doing the 45 degree kick (or atleast when I was introduced to it 89-ish), we just called it a lazy-mans roundhouse. a no-power half-*** attempt of a roundhouse.

now it seems pretty common. not sure if its a lack of teaching proper technique, or an attempt to improve speed.

i tend to think the first, but hey, its great for slap kicking.....

 

[Manny]

To the head? That isn't what you said before. You said you aim the peet chagi at the abdomen or floating ribs or even the kidney area or even to the legs in self defense.

OK I didn't wrote to the HEAD, however FOR ME a peet-chagui to the mid area is faster than full roundhose (dollyo-chagui) to the mid area.... this is FOR ME and some other folks that I know... FOR YOU IS NOT and I am glad you can do it...

Peace.

Manny