Now remember it is not our fault

[Flying Crane]

Not according to this article from the Sun:

I recently saw an interview with him. take it or leave it, i don't care. we all know how you feel about it.

 

[Nolerama]

I think perhaps the shortness of the remark was brought on by the fact that that particuar 'football' has been kicked around this yard fairly endlessly for quite a few years now. You weren't to know that of course, so no fault on your own head for that. I just wanted to show you weren't being picked on randomly for a comment you made in good faith but rather caught the backwash of many an overheated word-fight.

It seems to me that no matter what path someone publicising environmental issue takes, they're going to take a beating from those who don't want to listen.

Because Mr, Gore has wealth enough to make his voice heard quite well, those who oppose his views seize the most visible handle they can to mock the messenger in the vain hope that that will be sufficient to silence the message.

If he were to renounce his wealth, live a carbon zero lifestyle (and thus not be so effective in getting across the evidence as he sees it) then people would knock him for being a 'loony' and obviously not credible because of that.

No win is possible against those who don't want to hear and who can't formulate an argument based on reason and evidence.

The advice is much appreciated. It's natural for me to take on all-comers in a written debate, and I sometimes escalate the situation. A personal trait I'm not particularly fond of. Thank you for preventing that.

I think the original topic indicated that with current research on rising sea levels, several major cities will be affected (or have already been affected) by problems from elevated sea levels. It makes me wonder: what would I do if I were to live in one of those cities?

Survival comes to mind, especially after seeing what happened in New Orleans. I'd keep a BOB (Bug-Out-Bag) stocked with emergency essentials, for sure, emphasizing on keeping water purification tablets in the likely event that municipal water/sewage mixes.

 

[Steel Tiger]

The I think the original topic indicated that with current research on rising sea levels, several major cities will be affected (or have already been affected) by problems from elevated sea levels. It makes me wonder: what would I do if I were to live in one of those cities?

This is a good question. I figure most people will just continue on the way they are because they cannot change their circumstance or simply don't want to believe it is even a possibility.

But it is why I asked if anyone knows just how much of a sea level increase will actually bring these cities into risk. In the Pacific they are already seeing the effects of the current 7cm or so average rise on the more altitudinally challenged islands. And Venice is basically underwater most of the year nowadays.

I guess all you can do is make some preparations for evacuating at some point in the future and keep yourself informed on the subject.

 

[Xue Sheng]

A discussion not an arguement, I like this Thanks :asian:

We really need to consider what this will mean to a large section of the population of the planet, just a quick look around the internet came up with 70,000,000 people, but it was a very quick look and it could be a bit low.

Also what happened in New Orleans already give at least some idea of the effect of flooding on population. But obviously this will not happen quite as fast as what happened in when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans. Also you have to consider this is only talking about major cities that are in threat of flooding this does not include the multiple communities that are on a coast line around the world. Also prior to the flooding issue there are storm surge issues and tidal issues that will effect all in lower areas first.

But mainly my whole reason for this post is to make the point it does not matter what Al Gore thinks, says or does. It does not matter whose fault it is or if it is from pollution or a natural function of the planet it is happening so now what?

As to how much of a sea level increase will actually bring these cities into risk that is pretty easy to figure out just look at a topo map and I believe in some cases it is scary low but I will look into this more and see if I can come up with some numbers. Also I believe Global Sea level is based on NYC's major harbors

 

[Xue Sheng]

Now You See Them (but They Could Soon Vanish)

Where Gems Could Be Lost

Photo Gallery: The Threatened Places

 

[SageGhost83]

Well, the earth is always changing. It wasn't always like this and it won't always remain this way. Some countries will be swallowed up by the ocean, and nature will move on. It is funny that we are so arrogant as a species that we think that we can dictate to nature when it is nature who will always make us her B-. We can do a couple of neat things as a species, but in the end, nature will always win and dictate the conditions on this planet. Cities sink, geopgraphy changes, such is the way of nature - neverending change. Personally, I am more concerned with earthquakes and volcanoes - far more destructive force and at a much quicker pace. Cyber president makes a lot of good points about global warming, but he seems to forget that nature goes through periods of major temperature fluctuations - unless he blames the lifestyles of those greedy, spoiled dinosaurs with their cosmic shenanigans for starting an ice age :shrug:.

 

[Twin Fist]

therein lies the rub

No one really denies that the climate is changing.

BUT

how much is because of man's impact ?

I mean, seriously, if this is something that happens every so often (which it is) then it is meant to happen, and in all likelyhood, if we try to interfere, we are prob gonna screw it up. Thats what man does, screw things up. And we cant change a natural, global event.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Personally, I am more concerned with earthquakes and volcanoes - far more destructive force and at a much quicker pace. Cyber president makes a lot of good points about global warming, but he seems to forget that nature goes through periods of major temperature fluctuations - unless he blames the lifestyles of those greedy, spoiled dinosaurs with their cosmic shenanigans for starting an ice age :shrug:.

Interesting you are concerned about earthquakes and volcanoes but not global warming.

Yes the planet does go through temperature changes for various reasons but this is a bit out of the cycle actually. And it can be caused by CO2 or a slight change in the planets axis or the planets orbit around the sun can change as well. If it is an axis shift or an orbit issue we can do nothing but sit and wait, If it is something like CO2 that we can do something about (unless it s to late) then we can do something (maybe) sit and wait or just complain that someone should have done something.

But back to volcanoes and earth quakes. As large quantities of ice melts, like that on Antarctica the earths crust rebounds and that does in fact cause some pretty sever earth quakes. Also there are volcanoes under the Antarctic ice sheet that as the crust rebounds likely become active.

Also as large quantities of fresh water are introduced into the ocean rapidly (like an eruption in Antartica could cause) it can have adverse effects on the oceanic conveyor belt system which can cause rapid, species killing, cooling see Younger Dryas

The planet is an incredibly linked system and looking at one or two issues is not how the system works.

While your at it you might want to worry about tsunamis, there is a section of the Hawaiian island chain that could sheer off and cause a rather large tsunami which would seriously effect the west coast of the US and then there are the Islands off of the West African coast that are going to sheer off and cause a rather large tsunami that will inundate places like NYC and likely reverse flow on few large rivers.

And then as things warm there can be drastic reversals you may want to look up the Younger Dryas for more info on that.

And there is a big difference between a global warming issue of today and a large meteor impact that likely ended the dinosaurs. But regardless if that is your stance then the possibility of Human extinction must be alright with you then

 

[Xue Sheng]

therein lies the rub

No one really denies that the climate is changing.

BUT

how much is because of man's impact ?

I mean, seriously, if this is something that happens every so often (which it is) then it is meant to happen, and in all likelyhood, if we try to interfere, we are prob gonna screw it up. Thats what man does, screw things up. And we cant change a natural, global event.

Good question and I am not saying we should jump in and fix anything by this post, that is not my point. Point of the post is things ARE going to change and we may need to live with it.

My point is and always has been we really need to figure out if it is something we can fix or not. If we can then we should do something about it (if it is not too late), if we can't we need to figure out a way to survive it if we can. We are so busy arguing about whose fault it is or denying any responsibility we are not addressing the issue of what the impact is and/or if we can do anything about it.

Figuring out what is going on and what the impact will be is much better to me than arguing back and forth and pointing fingers and saying it is not our fault or it is our fault. All the arguing about this is silly (and I do not think you are arguing) and accomplishes nothing.

 

[kidswarrior]

What about LA they need to go down the drain with Detroit

Terry, I'm assuming you're joking about this. My daughter lives and works in LA--by choice, because that's where she sees the most people in need in this region, and many of my students have family in LA. While from the point of view of Texas it might be easy to stereotype and so write off an entire city based on media images or sound-bytes, I suggest we would be doing a big disservice to a majority segment of the population by doing so.

But I know you're a good guy, so you're probably way ahead of me on this. :asian:

 

[SageGhost83]

Interesting you are concerned about earthquakes and volcanoes but not global warming.

Yes the planet does go through temperature changes for various reasons but this is a bit out of the cycle actually. And it can be caused by CO2 or a slight change in the planets axis or the planets orbit around the sun can change as well. If it is an axis shift or an orbit issue we can do nothing but sit and wait, If it is something like CO2 that we can do something about (unless it s to late) then we can do something (maybe) sit and wait or just complain that someone should have done something.

But back to volcanoes and earth quakes. As large quantities of ice melts, like that on Antarctica the earths crust rebounds and that does in fact cause some pretty sever earth quakes. Also there are volcanoes under the Antarctic ice sheet that as the crust rebounds likely become active.

Also as large quantities of fresh water are introduced into the ocean rapidly (like an eruption in Antartica could cause) it can have adverse effects on the oceanic conveyor belt system which can cause rapid, species killing, cooling see Younger Dryas

The planet is an incredibly linked system and looking at one or two issues is not how the system works.

While your at it you might want to worry about tsunamis, there is a section of the Hawaiian island chain that could sheer off and cause a rather large tsunami which would seriously effect the west coast of the US and then there are the Islands off of the West African coast that are going to sheer off and cause a rather large tsunami that will inundate places like NYC and likely reverse flow on few large rivers.

And then as things warm there can be drastic reversals you may want to look up the Younger Dryas for more info on that.

And there is a big difference between a global warming issue of today and a large meteor impact that likely ended the dinosaurs. But regardless if that is your stance then the possibility of Human extinction must be alright with you then

Whoa dude, calm down - it was mostly tongue in cheek, didn't you get that from the whole dinosaur part? I see you take this issue very personally, my dear friend. We can't deny the impact that humanity and his "civilization" has had on the planet. His pollution alone has led to many a species holocaust and degradation of the environment. I was pointing out the fact that the earth goes through cycles like this over time. The atmosphere has changed many times throughout the planet's history and there have been plenty of major upheavals as a result. Perhaps we are just going through another one, no? In all fairness, the earth has been bombarded by forces far more devastating than modern man and it is still around. Now listen to all of the doom and gloom and they would have you believe that our meddling can permanently destroy it or bring it to an end. The cycles have held over time and continue to hold today. Now, throw in a major nuclear war, then yes - *all* of the blame for changing things exclusively goes to man and his bumbling incompetence, however, there would still be a nuclear winter as a reaction and balancing out of the planet's atmosphere. It is a self correcting mechanism. Humanity definitely shares some of the blame, but not to the extent that cyber president was trying to make it out to be. We definitely need to take better care of the planet and I am in 100% agreement with you on that one.

 

[SageGhost83]

My point is and always has been we really need to figure out if it is something we can fix or not. If we can then we should do something about it

Usually we just end up screwing things up even worse than they were when we try to "fix" them. I believe that is what Twin Fists was getting at, and it is very true. We need to learn how to live with nature, not dominate it and make it conform to our own selfish needs as a species. Doing our part to respect this rock and not trash it is part of learning to live with it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Whoa dude, calm down - it was mostly tongue in cheek, didn't you get that from the whole dinosaur part? I see you take this issue very personally, my dear friend. We can't deny the impact that humanity and his "civilization" has had on the planet. His pollution alone has led to many a species holocaust and degradation of the environment. I was pointing out the fact that the earth goes through cycles like this over time. The atmosphere has changed many times throughout the planet's history and there have been plenty of major upheavals as a result. Perhaps we are just going through another one, no? In all fairness, the earth has been bombarded by forces far more devastating than modern man and it is still around. Now listen to all of the doom and gloom and they would have you believe that our meddling can permanently destroy it or bring it to an end. The cycles have held over time and continue to hold today. Now, throw in a major nuclear war, then yes - *all* of the blame for changing things exclusively goes to man and his bumbling incompetence, however, there would still be a nuclear winter as a reaction and balancing out of the planet's atmosphere. It is a self correcting mechanism. Humanity definitely shares some of the blame, but not to the extent that cyber president was trying to make it out to be. We definitely need to take better care of the planet and I am in 100% agreement with you on that one.

No problem, I was not upset, it was more like just being sick and tired of the whole thing and I thought that it was interesting to be concerned about earthquakes and volcanoes and not large amounts of ice melting which could (geologically speaking) do a lot of damage rather quickly (likely not to us really but to our grandchildren).

And I am fairly tired of the "It's not our fault/Finger pointing arguments" that on occasion single out things as the "REAL" problem when in fact earth systems are fairly related so I will admit I did not see the humor in your previous post my apologies.

And as I stated in my post, yes the planet does go through cycles. However I believe, and I may be wrong here because it has been a long time since I looked at the data on this, geologically speaking we should be in a cooling trend not a warming trend.

And the point of this entire post from the beginning was to point out that all the arguing, finger pointing, and denial will not change a thing.

We either have to figure out what is causing this and figure out if we can fix it or shut up and live with it, because IMO, in the long run when sea levels rise and things heat up and there is a possible repeat of something like the Younger Dryas it is then that many who are arguing for and against will decide either "We should do something" (when it is to late} or start looking for someone else to blame (certainly not themselves) as to why no one told them this was going to happen.

And I should make a bit of a clarification that in the event of something like the Younger Dryas it is likely it would not kill of species on a global scale. However in the effected geographical region it certainly will. And there is some thought that it did just that to humans in the Northeastern to mid Atlantic United States the last time.

Usually we just end up screwing things up even worse than they were when we try to "fix" them. I believe that is what Twin Fists was getting at, and it is very true. We need to learn how to live with nature, not dominate it and make it conform to our own selfish needs as a species. Doing our part to respect this rock and not trash it is part of learning to live with it.

Yup, I got that and I agree. I am also saying that instead of jumping on the "Let's fix the planet" bandwagon (which I do fully understand that neither you nor Twin Fists are suggesting) that our time would be better spent figuring out "IF" we can fix it first and IF we can how.

If we can't, invest in ocean front property in Upstate NY

 

[Xue Sheng]

Tokyoites least eco-minded of rich city dwellers: poll

There you go that is the whole thing in a nutshell having conveniences is more important than anything so get ready folks if we have anything to do with global warming chances are we will not do anything, it is just not convenient…. It’s just too hard…

And what is rather ironic here is that Tokyo could end up underwater and yet they do not want to do anything that will inconvenience them.

But I could be wrong, I am admittedly rather cynical… maybe when part of their life style means buying hip boots to get around they will decide to see if maybe they could do something.... maybe... possibly elevate the entire island above sea level... Hell it kinda works for building airports... doesn’t it

And I am not singling out or blaming Tokyo or the Japanese. They are people just like everyone else and to be honest, in my opinion; it is the conveniences we have that we may have to give up that is a BIG part of NOT wanting to find out what is really going on.... That and the pursuit of the Dollar, Yen, Euro, Paso, etc.