"Now I am the master!"

[mrhnau]

I'm in a small school, and one of our students just got promoted to 1st dan. What is interesting is that our instructor is 1st dan also (he had a higher dan test him). he currently is helping teach some of the newer students.

so, the question is as follows... Has anyone ever encountered this before? Is it awkward? Would it be appropriate for the new 1st dan to be charged fees, since he in theory has the same amount of knowledge? Ever known students to excel past their teachers?

anyways, I just find the dynamics interesting...

MrH

 

[shesulsa]

It's not often in martial arts schools where a first dan can promote to his/her same level.

Not sure how I feel about the rest - it really depends on the head teacher of the school and his/her background. Is that teacher a higher rank in another system? Been around for a really long time? More info is needed.

 

[mrhnau]

It's not often in martial arts schools where a first dan can promote to his/her same level.

Not sure how I feel about the rest - it really depends on the head teacher of the school and his/her background. Is that teacher a higher rank in another system? Been around for a really long time? More info is needed.

We are a branch school under Ed Martin (15th dan). He did the testing, but Ed is not local... Our instructor can promote through a few kyu, after that, Ed does the testing...

Our local teacher is a reasonably high dan in another art, but he is not teaching it and to my knowledge not practicing it much anymore.

MrH

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

After extensive and tiring research into the movies of Hong Kong, I've discovered the new 1st must kill the other in order to become the new master.

 

[shesulsa]

One more post, Egg!

 

[terryl965]

We are a branch school under Ed Martin (15th dan). He did the testing, but Ed is not local... Our instructor can promote through a few kyu, after that, Ed does the testing...

Our local teacher is a reasonably high dan in another art, but he is not teaching it and to my knowledge not practicing it much anymore.

MrH

Mrhnau Mr Martin is a 15th dan never heard of a 15th dan the highest is 10th and only a few exsist in TKD what style does he teach, and I never knew a 1st could promote a 1st not in our style you must be a 4th to promote legitatematly (MISPELLED) anyway I would like to have more info. on Ed Martin can't find nothing through search engines.
Terry

 

[mrhnau]

Mrhnau Mr Martin is a 15th dan never heard of a 15th dan the highest is 10th and only a few exsist in TKD what style does he teach, and I never knew a 1st could promote a 1st not in our style you must be a 4th to promote legitatematly (MISPELLED) anyway I would like to have more info. on Ed Martin can't find nothing through search engines.
Terry

He is one of the few 15th dan's in the US. Highest rank in the Bujinkan.
Can find some info here if you are really interested.

As I stated, the 1st dan did not promote him, just Ed.

MrH

 

[Brother John]

Mr. Ed Martin is a very well respected senior in the art of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and is a student of the Grandmaster of that association, M. Hatsumi Soke.
Here's Mr. Martin's Bio: http://northampton1.com/Dojo/Ed/Sensi.htm

15th Dan is as high as one can go in the Bujinkan association, but it doesn't imply "Grandmaster" to them.
The Korean systems got their "Dan" system from their Japanese predecessors...who in turn, got it from Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, who was later imitated (in the ranking structure) by Funakoshi's Shotokan Karate-Do. Shotokan influenced (according to some, was THE source of) Tae Kwan Do.....so they have the same "10th is the highest" Dan system. The Bujinkan doesn't opperate undert these guidelines and really only developed the "Dan" system they use to represent the stages of development that already existed in their system.
This is from my limited knowledge of their Ninjutsu.


Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

wow...
ok


we were replying with pretty much the same message at the same time.
ODD




Your Brother (great minds think alike)
John

 

[arnisador]

If a shodan is an instructor rank, then it is traditional in many systems that an instructor can promote another to instructor rank--after all, many systems had only the distinction between "student" and "teacher" (including that there was not always a well-defined head of the system, e.g. early Karate, in the 1800s). So, an instructor would certify the student as ready to teach, and the student would be fully empowered to do so.

I understood that the ninjutsu system "technically" only goes to 10th dan but that there are then 5 grades of it that are loosely spoken of as 11th-15th dan. But, they really are only grades of 10th dan. Is this correct?

 

[terryl965]

He is one of the few 15th dan's in the US. Highest rank in the Bujinkan.
Can find some info here if you are really interested.

As I stated, the 1st dan did not promote him, just Ed.

MrH

I'm Not saying he not legetimant or anything I've personally never heard of him and I like to see info. on people pretty impressive Bio, althrough I do not no much about the style myself it look pretty interesting. Sorry about not understanding the 1st dan thing earlier. No harm no foul.
I would like to learn more about the style itself any good book you can give me title on thet reflect the history with the style. Thank you
Terry

 

[Brother John]

I would like to learn more about the style itself any good book you can give me title on thet reflect the history with the style. Thank you
Terry

Hey Terry,
try out the Ninjutsu section here... there are some VERY "Info-filled" guys that frequent there.... Like Don Rolley, but he's a little goofy...gotta be ready for that.

Your Brother
John

 

[terryl965]

Hey Terry,
try out the Ninjutsu section here... there are some VERY "Info-filled" guys that frequent there.... Like Don Rolley, but he's a little goofy...gotta be ready for that.

Your Brother
John

Thanks Brother John as you know I mean no dis-respect towards anybody, if you do not know one must ask.
Terry

 

[mrhnau]

If a shodan is an instructor rank, then it is traditional in many systems that an instructor can promote another to instructor rank--after all, many systems had only the distinction between "student" and "teacher" (including that there was not always a well-defined head of the system, e.g. early Karate, in the 1800s). So, an instructor would certify the student as ready to teach, and the student would be fully empowered to do so.

I understood that the ninjutsu system "technically" only goes to 10th dan but that there are then 5 grades of it that are loosely spoken of as 11th-15th dan. But, they really are only grades of 10th dan. Is this correct?

I'm a newbie, so take this w/ a grain of salt...

You need to be a certain rank (don't know, maybe 5th?) to promote to 1st dan. We are a shibu (branch school) under Ed Martin. In theory, once the instructor reaches 5th, he can have his own "full" school.

As far as the technicality, I understand you to be correct... I'm not sure what the specific differences are between, lets say, 11th and 12th dan, or how one gets promoted at that point... I -think- once you are around 10, you have just about as much knowledge as you can get (please correct me if I'm wrong!) I think the rankings are not as technical as with other dans... anyone know of some kind criteria for the higher ranks?

MrH

 

[chinto01]

Gentlemen and ladies I believe that mrhnau came here asking if it is unusual for a shodan to promote someone to their same rank. I do not believe he came here to defend the credentials of Mr.Martin. I sounds to me like Mr.Martin did the testing and issued the certificate for shodan in which the branch instructor who is a shodan presented it to the receipient. Sounds to me like he was just the middle man and in no way did the testing. is this correct?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[arnisador]

I think a shodan promoting to shodan is unusual for systems that use the dan ranking system.

But there are still styles--I think Okinawa-te is one (Cthulhu, help me out here?)--where you're either an instructor or not, so instructors, who wear a black belt, can promote to their rank.

 

[Grenadier]

I'm in a small school, and one of our students just got promoted to 1st dan. What is interesting is that our instructor is 1st dan also (he had a higher dan test him). he currently is helping teach some of the newer students.

Interesting system. In most styles I've seen, an instructor is only allowed to promote someone to one rank below his own rank, and in some styles, they actually restrict this to two ranks below one's own rank.

The only way I've seen where someone can promote someone to an equal rank, is when it comes to those testing at the high dan ranks, where a council approves of such a promotion.

I've only promoted one person to Shodan, and that was during my Shotokan days (where I held a Nidan ranking). Even then, I only promoted that person after consulting with the chief instructor at the headquarters dojo.

Would it be appropriate for the new 1st dan to be charged fees, since he in theory has the same amount of knowledge?

If an advanced ('older') Shodan has just promoted an Ikkyu to Shodan ('newer'), then it's a pretty safe bet that the older Shodan knows more than the newer one does, and that there's still much to be learned. Nothing replaces experience entirely, and until the newer guy can surpass the older guy in rank, it stays that way.

Ever known students to excel past their teachers?

Certainly. The one that I promoted to Shodan all of those years ago, has now become a Sandan in Shotokan, and he has surpassed me in Shotokan Karate. The day that he got his Sandan was one of the happiest days of my life. Even though I haven't been training in Shotokan for over a decade now, I still pay an occasional visit to the friends at the old dojo.

The one thing that irks me, is that my former student still calls me "sir," and refuses to call me by my first name, even though I'm no longer affiliated with Shotokan, and that I've told him many times that he's now my superior in the style.

 

[Brother John]

Hey Rob
I don't think anyone was attacking or defending Mr. Martin or his rank, just questioning and explaining.

I think there's a basic misunderstanding here: as a "Shibu" under Mr. Martin, this person who was promoted to 1st Dan wasn't promoted by the 'leader' of the club.... who is also a 1st Dan, but by the real head of the school...Mr. Martin....whom, according to his rank, can promote anyone to any rank he wants to. SO really, a 1st Dan didn't promote a 1st Dan, he may have helped train him, but he's really just another student of the Head of the school. The 'instructor' of a shibu is really more of a steward under the real instructor, his or her eyes and ears so to speak.

The relationship between these two 1st Dan's needs to be.....well.....careful. If they now share the helm and are both ok with that...then Great. Does he need to 'pay dues'? I'd bet so, but that'd probably be Mr. Martin's call. See, the thing is...most instructor DO pay dues, but it's not the flat fee that most 'students' pay, they often bridge the gap between what the school pulls in and what they NEED to pay for rent, utilities....etc. So the instructors DO 'pay'...but theirs is a different 'dues'.

Maybe this helps??


Your brother
John

PS: Terry... after having known you for a bit (from these forums) I know you meant no disrespect, it just wouldn't be keeping with your track record of maturity and thoughtfulness.

 

[Flying Crane]

If a shodan is an instructor rank, then it is traditional in many systems that an instructor can promote another to instructor rank--after all, many systems had only the distinction between "student" and "teacher" (including that there was not always a well-defined head of the system, e.g. early Karate, in the 1800s). So, an instructor would certify the student as ready to teach, and the student would be fully empowered to do so.

I think Arnisador has a good point here.

This situation is a very clear example of the problems that I believe the whole ranking structure and traditions can create. Some schools and organizations are very rigid in their procedures. You have to be a certain rank, say 3rd or 4th dan before you are considered a teacher, and then you can only promote people up to two levels below you, etc. I think at some point, this whole scenario become problematic. How do people reach the higher ranks, if there always has to be someone two levels above? eventually, nobody can reach the dan ranks at all because of this kind of requirement (i am playing the devil's advocate a bit, but you see my point).

Other schools are more loosely structured in this regard. I trained in a kenpo school that was only loosely affiliated with a larger organization. My teachers were 2nd and 1st dan. When I was promoted to 1st, the certificate I was given states that I am authorized to teach and give rank. No conditions were attached. Of course no other organization formally recognizes my rank, but I don't really care. Nobody formally recognizes anyone else's rank if they don't belong to their organization anyway, since there is no uniformity from art to art, or school to school.

I have heard stories in the kenpo lineages, of the earlier generations becoming teachers at shodan. Sometimes even earlier. Often in those days, anything above shodan was only vaguely recognized.

We have become so infatuated with rank, I think it really becomes a mess. I expressed my own opinions about this in another thread, but I do think we would be better off with a simplified blackbelt system. My feelings are that there should be only two levels of blackbelt: Blackbelt Non-Instructor, and Blackbelt Instructor. Instructor rank would be given by one's teacher whenever he feels it is merited. It could be given immediately when blackbelt is awarded, or it could be given years later or never. Of course there is always more to learn, this does not mean you have reached the pinnacle, but I think it is time to move beyond the mess created by the dan system. I think it is time to grow up a bit, and this could be a step in that direction.

As far as the situation goes in your school, I guess if those who are in charge are comfortable with the situation, don't worry about it. Of course the new first dan is not equal with the other teacher. There is a level of experience that is vastly different, even if they hold the same formal rank. Nothing wrong with recognizing that.

 

[Brother John]

We have become so infatuated with rank, I think it really becomes a mess.

I do think we would be better off with a simplified blackbelt system. My feelings are that there should be only two levels of blackbelt: Blackbelt Non-Instructor, and Blackbelt Instructor.

I like your views on this FC. I really think you may have struck on something there. Why the 'degrees'?? Do we really need more carrots dangled in order to keep moving forward? Do we need to have more degrees than a thermometer to show that we know what we are talking about???
hmmm........

now you've really got me thinking.
and that can be hazardous...


Your Brother
John