Not the best of time for the |Catholic Church

[Sukerkin]

Jim, to be honest, I really don't care about the Catholic churches belief and teachings or how that motivated it's actions in these cases.

It's been known for decades over here (and in the States too I am sure) that Catholic priests were engaging in such 'activities' and the organisation of the Church protected them from prosecution.

It is incomprehensible to me how people can prevaricate and evade that core issue.

I shall not comment further on this as I am far too tired and far too likely to explode if I don't shush myself.

 

[Ken Morgan]

The priest that married me came up here from the States, and lasted all of about six months before he was investigated for abusing little boys. The church sent him off to Rome to work there. After asking questions, everyone realized that this was his fifth parish is less then five years. hmmmm....

They should all be charged. Anything less is a coverup, anyone who covers it up should be charged.

You get religious groups refusing medical treatment for children, groups that refuse to endorse condoms in areas where AIDS has killed millions, you get religous groups that treat women like cattle, that kill people, that can't wait for the "rapture", that treat bronze age stories as scientific truth.

Religion is a plague, and I for one can't wait till its all gone from the face of the earth.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Religion is a plague, and I for one can't wait till its all gone from the face of the earth.

I sincerely doubt that day will ever come while humans still exist.

 

[Ken Morgan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6Wsm5LBe0w&feature=player_embedded

 

[Blade96]

Like you Ken, I dislike the religions, like the catholic church, but not because it has pedophiles. (all places have pedophiles but can't judge the whole thing because of some bad people)

If I got into a discussion about religions, and why I dislike them, I would never shut up because I'd have a lot to say =]

 

[Carol]

Why isn't the name Tom Riley just as hated as Bernard Cardinal Law? How come you had to have been a person that lived in Mass. in the early 2000s to even know this name?

I have not been in good standing with the Church in quite awhile but I was confirmed within the Archdiocese of Boston. I think the abuse and coverups are absolutely reprehensible. However, the Vatican was not able to prosecute crimes in Boston, Chicago, or anywhere else the reports were made....if the Vatican has any prosecuting authority it would be for crimes that happened within the Holy See. The crimes in the U.S., Europe, elsewhere...all of these happened where there were a body of laws in place that condemned these sort of actions. Am I excusing the Vatican for what happened? No, absolutely not...however there is an important piece missing.

Where were the prosecutors that WERE responsible? Massachusetts Attorney General Tom Riley gave Bernard Cardinal Law a bye. He washed his hands of him and chose not to prosecute.

I can see why many people don't like the church, or religion in general...but ignoring that the people that could have prosecuted these crimes where they happened did not step forward and do it. In the rush to demonize the Church, I think the critics are giving the prosecutors a bye the same way Riley let Law go off scot-free.

 

[Sukerkin]

Now I've had a sleep and can respond in a more polite and reasoned fashion to this highly emotive topic, really all I can still say of any substance is to reiterate what I said in the early hours i.e. that it astonishes me that the core issue of paedophilia by the priesthood is not being faced.

It has been going on for, roughly, 2000 years, give or take and is an inevitable consequence of denying men, in positions of social authority, the normal expression of their sexual needs.

I understand completely how people seek to protect their beliefs from being tarnished, that is a natural thing to want to do; but to attempt to defend the indefensible or deflect 'blame' from where it lies is not being morally honest. Even worse, it is not being honest with yourselves.

If such things were endemic in a temporal organisation and had been implicitly sanctioned and explicitly covered up (up to and including the manipulation of officials of the legal system), then to not hold the leadership of that organisation accountable would be unthinkable. For those Catholics here, just imagine how you would be reacting if it was another faith in the headlines.

Just because it's the Catholic (or any other) Church doesn't make a ha'poth of difference and indeed makes it much worse because they have trumpeted themselves as the arbiters of all that is good and moral.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It has been going on for, roughly, 2000 years, give or take and is an inevitable consequence of denying men, in positions of social authority, the normal expression of their sexual needs.

I do not believe that celibacy is the root cause of child molestation. As history has shown us, Catholic priests have broken their oaths of celibacy in a variety of ways, including taking lovers (male or female, depending upon their sexual orientation), fathering children, even marrying. Many are the priests who have found the rules of celibacy unbearable who have simply left the priesthood. Celibacy, common sense might suggest, would tend to cause a man with normal sexual desires to desire that expression, rather than turning it into an unhealthy and illegal desire for children.

Given also that child molestation seems to be an epidemic in every organization, religious or secular, in which adults are put into positions of trust over young children, I think it is entirely reasonable to suggest that people with such twisted proclivities tend to seek out such positions. Rather than the institution, it is the individuals themselves who seek to put themselves in situations where they will become a trusted authority figure over children.

While I scan the headline news every day for anything interesting about the martial arts and post some of those things here, I do not post all the news links I find to cases of martial arts instructors being arrested and accused of molesting their students. However, I can assure you that it is a near-daily occurrence. What do we make of this? Shall we put the blame on a martial arts system that tends to place authority in the hands of a sensei, sifu, or other instructor, who then becomes an authority figure not just due to their position as instructor, but due also to their demonstrated male dominance?

http://www.kitv.com/news/22960436/detail.html

I would argue that martial arts is not to blame, nor are youth sports, public and private school teachers, athletic coaching, military officers and non-commissioned officers, and all the other situations in which adults who hold positions of authority over young people sometimes abuse those positions to prey upon children or the very young. It is the abusers themselves that are to blame, and they evidently will seek out such positions regardless of where they may be found.

It is not priestly celibacy which is to blame, but the abusers themselves.

However, the Catholic Church is an institution which has managed to isolate itself from scrutiny from the secular world; and it is monolithic. Whereas no karate association or teachers union would shield a molesting teacher or sensei, the Catholic Church has not only had the ability to do so, but has indeed done so on numerous occasions. This is both reprehensible and illegal, and should be both investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

As a Catholic, I would not be angered or upset if the FBI were to launch a RICO investigation into the cover-ups, and prosecuted those responsible for such behavior.

Sadly, I do not think this will happen. Whether we like it or not, Catholics wield much political power, and the public outcry would be huge. Worse than the HCR fights.

For those Catholics here, just imagine how you would be reacting if it was another faith in the headlines.

It has been, and I am just as horrified. There are a number of reasons why we hear more about abuses in the Catholic Church. One can argue media bias against Catholics, but whether true or not, the Catholic Church is much larger than any other single religious organization and it is hierarchical. One hears of a Baptist minister being arrested, or an Anglican, and one does not know which group in particular they are associated with. When one hears 'Catholic', with very few exceptions, the buck stops with the Pope in Rome.

Just because it's the Catholic (or any other) Church doesn't make a ha'poth of difference and indeed makes it much worse because they have trumpeted themselves as the arbiters of all that is good and moral.

Yes, that is entirely true. It does make it worse.

 

[jks9199]

I agree with Bill; child abuse and pedophilia is not something unique to the Church. It's a twisted truth of humanity that some people are wired that way -- and give into their urges.

And when I note that the Church's response is IN PART due to theology, I'm not excusing covering up the behavior, nor am I suggesting that any and all civil or criminal remedies shouldn't be employed. The religious response and the lay (in this case, the local government) do not need to be, nor should they be, the same.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I agree with Bill; child abuse and pedophilia is not something unique to the Church. It's a twisted truth of humanity that some people are wired that way -- and give into their urges.

And when I note that the Church's response is IN PART due to theology, I'm not excusing covering up the behavior, nor am I suggesting that any and all civil or criminal remedies shouldn't be employed. The religious response and the lay (in this case, the local government) do not need to be, nor should they be, the same.

I agree. For a molesting priest to repent and seek forgiveness within the Church is one thing; the Church may accept or deny such a request as their internal rules dictate, as they would any repentance of sin.

However, that does not change criminal culpability in any way. Many are the people serving time in prison who are forgiven in God's eyes; that is not cause for them to be released from responsibility to the law of man.

Confessions under the seal of the confessional are perhaps a trickier thing, and I don't have any idea how that should be addressed, but I believe most of these charges that the Church knew about and covered up (by relocating) the offender were not under any such seal. One would hope that Church officials who chose to accept repentance of such sins by priests would also dial 911.

 

[jks9199]

I agree. For a molesting priest to repent and seek forgiveness within the Church is one thing; the Church may accept or deny such a request as their internal rules dictate, as they would any repentance of sin.

However, that does not change criminal culpability in any way. Many are the people serving time in prison who are forgiven in God's eyes; that is not cause for them to be released from responsibility to the law of man.

Confessions under the seal of the confessional are perhaps a trickier thing, and I don't have any idea how that should be addressed, but I believe most of these charges that the Church knew about and covered up (by relocating) the offender were not under any such seal. One would hope that Church officials who chose to accept repentance of such sins by priests would also dial 911.

I had a discussion once with a priest about the sacrament of Confession and a criminal confession. In brief, the sacrament is not complete until penance is done, and in a case like that, the priest may well make confession of the crime a part of the penance. I am not personally aware of any case where a priest violated the seal of the confessional directly -- but this is one way that they have to deal with that sort of issue.

 

[Ramirez]

Religion is a plague, and I for one can't wait till its all gone from the face of the earth.

I am an atheist as well Ken and used to think like you, now I have come around to realizing that some people can't function without a religion and I who am I to take that little comfort from them in a world that is too often just way too harsh

Now I save my outrage for for when religionists try to censure the teaching of evolution, Big Bang cosmology, trying to legislate pi equal to 3.....

 

[Ken Morgan]

I am an atheist as well Ken and used to think like you, now I have come around to realizing that some people can't function without a religion and I who am I to take that little comfort from them in a world that is too often just way too harsh

Now I save my outrage for for when religionists try to censure the teaching of evolution, Big Bang cosmology, trying to legislate pi equal to 3.....

I understand what you’re saying Ramirez, but I respectively disagree. People can function very well without religion, it’s just that most are indoctrinated at a very young age, and unfortunately know of no other way to function.

That being said, as long as religious people stick to themselves, don’t shove their beliefs down anyone else’s throat, don’t get special treatment like getting tax breaks because they believe in an invisible man in the sky, and like you, don’t try to force everyone to believe bronze age stories are really science, I have no problem with religion.

And while I can hope billions of people will finally see that they don’t need religion, I also am pragmatic enough to know that it will never happen.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

While I am not offended by your choice of words, they were clearly aimed to antagonize and belittle. You're not just not religious, you're antagonistic towards those who are. You may think you have no problem with religious people but your words betray you. You've got some issues with religion, sir.

 

[kaizasosei]

I've always known that the form of celibacy that the church forces their people to practice is wrong. We all know how terrible it is when an adult exploits a child with abuse. There are plenty of horrid and terrible stories out there. Family members, school teachers- sleeze from all walks of life.

I am a firm believer of 'hate the sin not the sinner' and i dislike mobbings as they lead me to sympathize with the one being mobbed, however, my mother has often told me what they do to child molesters down in her native land...basically, something like castrating them and hanging them by some bridge or in the city for all to see. Somehow, i guess it's how nature works to some degree. Decissive to say the least.

What sickens me most and makes me quite sad for the grand fasade that is the church, is that these culprits are supposed to be the guardians and curators of our souls. Wtf, this ain't the time of vestal virgins, and most of those socalled celibates are total fakes. Simple weirdos running away from life. And to have the audacity to preach to people and tell them about the soul when they've hardly even experienced anything of life...

Aside from the physical risks of engaging in sexual activities, there is a much great filth on the soul of him or her that denies sexuality and selfrightiously demonizes others.
You cannot expect someone to be able to force celibacy on themselves. The energy that is there is too powerful. Without experience it also holds no value. To force or demand celibacy but is pure torture on the self. It has to come from the heart. The vow of lifelong celibacy is also really outdated and totally unrealistic i find-even unhealthy not only mentally but also physically.

Purity is not only about not molesting people, son of a *****. There are all kinds of things one can consider force. Some of my pet peeves are when someone brings something and holds it out saying 'here!', expecting you to take it. Often done at a time when one is busy...It's like, put that **** down and i'll take it when i'm fine and ready. All sorts of things like physically encroaching on weaker people or youngsters just because it's possible. Even if i were to offer you a coaster for your drink, it's a kind of force, in my book. So from my perspective, it's sooo damn wrong that priests turn out to be some of the most pathetic pieces of **** on the planet. I pray the church acts more responsibly on these matters. Not like i'm happy about such tragedy. I'm from a christian background and i've always felt there are problems.


j

 

[Ken Morgan]

While I am not offended by your choice of words, they were clearly aimed to antagonize and belittle. You're not just not religious, you're antagonistic towards those who are. You may think you have no problem with religious people but your words betray you. You've got some issues with religion, sir.

Yes I do have an issue with religion Bill but not against many religious people. There is a difference. The vast majority of my friends are religious, and we get along very well, most of my family is religious, and again no issue.

However like you, I do have an issue when I hear about a cover up protecting pedophiles. Also when I hear about the Texas school board changing text books so that bronze age stories are taken as scientific truth, when children die because their parents don’t believe in blood transfusions, when religious leaders think it’s a good idea to promote suicide attacks, when members of two major religions try to push to the national agenda the need to start the “end time” so the rapture can start, when hypocritical people pick and choose what stories to follow and what stories to dismiss from the old and new testament, when religious organizations get tax breaks on the backs of hardworking people. In that context, yes I do have an issue with religion.

On this forum we have developed a community that can belittle, make fun of, and be critical of any and all subject. I have seen yourself and many, many others get worked up about US politics, gun laws, and US involvement around the world. Why should religion get a bi? Because its religion? Because it hurts peoples feelings? Because it forces people to look critically at their beliefs? People need to not swallow the cool-aid provided, they need to question their entire religion, not just the 10% they have been force fed since infancy.

I stand by what I said earlier, Religion is a plague, and I for one can't wait till its all gone from the face of the earth.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I've always known that the form of celibacy that the church forces their people to practice is wrong. We all know how terrible it is when an adult exploits a child with abuse.

I do not see a link between celibacy and child molestation, as I discussed previously. If you do, please state your argument. If not, perhaps these two statements do not belong together as if one causes the other.

I personally do not have a problem with priestly celibacy. I'm not a priest, so it isn't my issue. Priests know what is required of them going in, and they can quit at any time.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

On this forum we have developed a community that can belittle, make fun of, and be critical of any and all subject. I have seen yourself and many, many others get worked up about US politics, gun laws, and US involvement around the world. Why should religion get a bi? Because its religion? Because it hurts peoples feelings? Because it forces people to look critically at their beliefs?

Referring to someone's Deity as an 'invisible man in the sky' isn't getting anyone to confront their beliefs, and I'm sure you know that. It's designed to be insulting, because you wish to insult. I get that, sometimes I wish to be insulting too. I choose not to be offended, but amazingly, when one's intention is to instruct, addressing the classroom as 'Hey idiots!' doesn't often get the results one desires.

If you want me (or anyone) to look critically at our beliefs, there are better ways of doing it than being rude and insulting.

People need to not swallow the cool-aid provided, they need to question their entire religion, not just the 10% they have been force fed since infancy.

Pardon me for saying so, but this is a common theme among those who wish to modify the behavior of others, say through universal health care or banning guns or what-not. They begin by stating what it is people need to do.

Look at the discussion on this or any other forum; those that are the most civil do not have any statements in them regarding how one person believes others must change their behavior. Those that do nearly always have a statement in them regarding what others 'need to do'. And the discussion never goes very well after that point. n'est-ce pas?

Let me reply as I have in the past; what I 'need to do' is precisely what I feel like doing; nothing more and nothing less. I do not feel you 'need to do' anything at all; I would ask the same courtesy. It is not a discussion when you tell people how they ought to be living according to you; that is nothing more than attempting to dictate other's lives for them. And that is a very common feeling amongst members of a particular political persuasion.

What I 'need to do' is basically be left alone so long as nothing I do infringes on the civil liberties of others. You should be left alone to seethe and rage against religion if that is your wish, but when you tell me what I 'need to do', then you are overstepping, IMHO.

 

[kaizasosei]

The link between celibacy and childmolestation is a bit of a stretch i see that, but it do believe there is a connection. Because celibacy is a requirement for church service, people who have 'problems with sexuality' magically gravitate to the church. It is a haven for those that have come to tend a hostile attitude towards what is simply a part of life. -But just because they disdain sexuality in others and play pure lacking experience, doesn't mean they can uphold the farse. So aside from simply turning bitter after 20 years or so, when they feel some kind of attraction of a sexual nature, they can be overpowered by the feelings under whatever conditions. It is in the selfish nature of man to think that he can be the exception to a rule. Then there are those that are quite concious of their actions, which is the most evil.

To me it is utterly inconceivable, but there are people also that have pedophile tendencies. I do find it shocking that the church tollerates and hides it and claims some therapy. I strongly disagree with this. No less than a seven nation army and some serious clockwork orange style therapy could ever help the situation. and i do not really believe in therapy for priests. It's like therapy for a police man that shot people on purpose. Impossible. They're priests, they're supposed to uphold a certain standard.

To me this is not about religion or no religion. That would be ignoring the problems at hand, which are that there are people using the church as a cover for haneous crimes against the soul, the church itself is losing credibility as a positive social force.

Sortof a subject it would be advisable not to touch with even a very long pole, that is, sexual abuse. I would nevertheless dare it, but the subject for me is that the criminals here are hiding out under the cover of rightiousness and enlightenment. So wrong, so wrong. Don't you think?
From my perspective as someone who tries to be real in respecting the soul in all people, it makes me mad.
I call for UFC at bible study.




j

 

[kaizasosei]

I agree with what you are saying Bill.
I hate to say it though, whilst my heart bleeds for the nonbeliever, i cannot but understand completely, in light of the general incompetence from many spiritual factions, what is felt.

Shame really, because it's a loss for the individuals. It's like someone who wants to be loved but makes himself hated.

j