Not taken seriously

[azmyth]

I just came from another forum, where basically unless your BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai or some modern combatitive fighting system. Your style is junk. TKD and Aikido seem to get the brunt of the jokes.

Why? Why are TKD practitioners bashed so much? aren't there bad schools and bad instruction in all arts? It mainly comes from "grapplers". I find that everyone here seems to be very humble, and open minded.. where as alot of people who train in a few of the styles I listed above (not all of them mind you, but alot) are very cocky. And everything thats not what they do is crap. I know it shouldn't matter what someone else thinks of the art I study. But I am just trying to make sense of why TKD gets the worst of it.

Martial arts is martial arts.

 

[theletch1]

As an aikido-ka I can honestly say "I feel your pain". For many any art form that dedicates a good portion of it's time to the "sport" aspect gets ridiculed as not being a true martial art. For others, if there is a sport aspect that doesn't involve their particular view of "martial sport" gets ridicule. One would hope that as these individuals age/mature and get more experienced in the arts that their tone will become moderated. As for aikido, it isn't an art with a lot of "flair". That is, you really can't see what's going on since much of the technique involves changes in energy direction or pain compliance that rely on manipulating a small portion of the human body.

This sort of stuff used to bother me a great deal. Made me doubt my choice in the art that I study. Eventually, I came to realize that I wasn't studying for the folks that would ridicule my, or anyones, art. I was studying for ME and I was getting what I wanted from the art so it didn't make one whit of difference what others with less maturity thought of it.

I really appreciate your comments about the difference that you saw between other forums and MT. Most folks that come here with a bad attitude don't last long. Either they can't get anyone here to bite on their troll bait or they cross too many lines and wind up on the banned member list. Glad you're here and contributing to our community.:asian:

 

[exile]

I just came from another forum, where basically unless your BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai or some modern combatitive fighting system. Your style is junk. TKD and Aikido seem to get the brunt of the jokes.

Why? Why are TKD practitioners bashed so much? aren't there bad schools and bad instruction in all arts? It mainly comes from "grapplers". I find that everyone here seems to be very humble, and open minded.. where as alot of people who train in a few of the styles I listed above (not all of them mind you, but alot) are very cocky. And everything thats not what they do is crap. I know it shouldn't matter what someone else thinks of the art I study. But I am just trying to make sense of why TKD gets the worst of it.

Martial arts is martial arts.

Three words, azmyth: Olympic martial sport. That's the long and short of it, I think.

TKD's current profile is that of a mass-participation martial sport whose schools depend heavily on 'Little Tiger' after-school participation by young children, and teaching focuses on street-absurd point-scoring foot-tag, with rank advancement dispensed on a regular basis as long as your contract payments are up to date. That's it. There's no other reason, so far as I can see. We know it's not all like that, not by a long shot—but unfortunately, it's true that Olympic TKD sparring rules do emphasize virtuoso high kicks that are pretty unsuitable to street conditions and workaday garments, with minimal use of hand techs (due to scoring rules and judging practice); that there are McDojangs aplenty out there which emphasize self-esteem and confidence, and discipline for younger students, far more in their curriculum than ways of deflecting a roundhouse while closing the distance from the outside and breaking your attacker's jawbone with a horizontal elbow strike to his face.

There have been endless discussions of this on MT; rummage around in the archives and you'll see. And there are MA sites that we all know and don't love which essentially slander the rich depth of not just TKD, but traditional Asian MAs in general, by taking these kinds of abuses and sport-driven, cash-driven practices as the actual content of the art, rather than one possible line of development which is hardly necessary, given the technical possibilities we all know are there. It's not just TKD that gets this treatment: karate gets slammed too, and the CMAs get their share of cheap, uninformed shots as well.

The thing you have to ask, azmyth, is, who is contributing to these sites' threads, and who is taking their hostile, derisive sniping seriously? People with in-depth knowledge of the MAs, people who've been in the fighting arts line of work for decades, know better than to dismiss any of the TMAs in this way. Sure, there are problems there, especially with the more commercially successful ones—TKD is certainly included here—but for every problem, there are usually a dozen possible solutions, and I think that's the case here as well. In the end, you can't worry about what hostile yahoos who get their jollies indulging information superhighway road rage have to say about TKD or any other TMA. We know better. As for the people you're talking about on those other sites, bury them in sleep....

 

[searcher]

I think right now all of the striking arts are having to rebound from the early 90's Gracie success and what it did for the modern martial arts. If you give it enough time it will come full-circle and things will even back out. The guys you are talking about have not really studied TKD or the other styles that they bash on and so they go off of ignorance in their remarks. Don't sweat it or give it too much thought, you will find your time better spent training. JMO.

 

[Brad Dunne]

theletch1 gave a good response to your question, but I will venture an additional viewpoint. Grapplers, in general, mostly the younger players get filled with the "macho" attitude. This is primarily due to the fact that their dealing with heavy physical contact (body on body) and strength / physical force becomes an important factor in their training. Same goes for the Muay Thai folks, they train hard and like to hit hard, so again were dealing with physical strength applications in their techniques.

 

[AceHBK]

It is something that you have to let roll off your back. Most of the time they are just followers and as you know the weather always changes and those people are fickle to where the wind blows.

They act like all these combative sports are such much better than TMA's. Liek if they went to Korea, they could beat every person b/c all they know is TKD and their combative sport could wax the floor with all of them.

These people usually end up getting their butts handed to them because they don't realize that it is the person and not the art. Those are likely to be the same people who when they get a BB they feel like they are invincible.

And I hate to admit it but it is really the new American idea. MMA is something that Americans can claim as their own and of course many feel like it is unbeatable and everything else is trash.

 

[SageGhost83]

I just came from another forum, where basically unless your BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai or some modern combatitive fighting system. Your style is junk. TKD and Aikido seem to get the brunt of the jokes.

Why? Why are TKD practitioners bashed so much? aren't there bad schools and bad instruction in all arts? It mainly comes from "grapplers". I find that everyone here seems to be very humble, and open minded.. where as alot of people who train in a few of the styles I listed above (not all of them mind you, but alot) are very cocky. And everything thats not what they do is crap. I know it shouldn't matter what someone else thinks of the art I study. But I am just trying to make sense of why TKD gets the worst of it.

Martial arts is martial arts.

Welcome to the world of Internet forums, my friend. The truth is, every forum is a community, and some communities, such as MT, are healthy because the moderators and such are more concerned with running a decent internet community that provides a place for all stylists to feel welcome - not a community that exists solely to promote an agenda and bash other styles that don't fit said agenda. Most of the people who art bash are either ignorant, insecure in their own art, or both. You should never listen to them, they are just a waste of time because they have nothing better to do than to bash another art. As far as the cockiness, you will find that in every martial art - unfortunately, stupidity and arrogance are universal. You will find Taekwondoin who do the same thing - if it isn't flashy and sporty, they will bash it endlessly! You must also understand that at one point it was the strikers who bashed the grapplers endlessly and called what they did ineffective, now it is the other way around. Once strikers figure out how to defeat grapplers again, the argument will shift the other way, and so. Like I stated earlier - you need not waste your time by listening to what they say. The most important thing is that you choose a style that meets your own personal needs as a martial artist. Nobody can tell you what your own personal needs are, you must figure that out for yourself and choose the style that best meets them and satisfies you as an individual. If your style does this for you, then you are all set. Everybody who does something different is going to tell a million reasons why what you do is crap and what they do is the holy grail. If you are secure in what you do and you truly believe in your art, then ignore them or tell them to get lost. They are not worth debating with in the first place.

 

[azmyth]

Well I can tell where the martial artists I want to be associated with hang out.

I'm very humble when it comes to martial arts. I feel like we should all be one big happy family. Martial artists are a very small part of society, and all of us are shunned at some time or another by someone for our "hobby" or "skill". So I just dont get why we all have to bash each other rather than learning from each other.

I think the gracie's are amazing. I actually rooted for Royce when he fought Matt Hughes. I Like the martial arts, in ALL its facets. I love learning about all the different styles, and learning about their history and just everything I can soak in. I guess everyone can't be that way, and I just need to do my thing and not worry about anyone else.

I'm not gonna name the other forum i am sure you all can make your own guesses as to which one I am referring to.

 

[jks9199]

Unfortunately, both TKD and Aikido have suffered from how they've been handled in the West.

TKD has become a very successful business; I think in my area probably 70 to 80 percent of the commercial schools are some variant of TKD, and most of them have a large focus on the daycare/before & after school programs, and kids's programs. That's not to say there're no "legit" schools for adults, you just have to look harder. Add the Olympic/sport TKD approaches, with various musical kata, hands down sparring, and all the rest, and it's easy for people who don't look beyond that outer surface to think that there's nothing more to it. I was lucky; I got to see the way they teach TKD to the South Korean military, and to know that there are other ways TKD can be taught.

Aikido probably got treated WORSE! It got absorbed by New Agers who were into "harmonizing" and "unifying" with their partners (no opponents, please, that's aggressive), and few people have seen the more functional, more vicious side outside of the first two (maybe three) movies Steven Seagal did.

Throw in the current hype regarding Muay Thai, Jujitsu (especially Brazillian Jujitsu), and MMA as being "the closest thing to the real deal" (been there, done that... and they're not that close) and "ultimate combat sports" (there's a new one every decade or so... except when one of the old ones gets recycled...) and you have a lot of misinformed people running their mouths. Ever notice how ALL grappling in MMA is described as "jujitsu" and all the striking tends to be called "Muay Thai?" I'd love to see someone with a really good background in a traditional striking martial art (maybe Isshin ryu karate, for example) and a good ranking in Judo or even traditional jujutsu be identified as such in the MMA competitions -- and fight from their background.

 

[SageGhost83]

Well I can tell where the martial artists I want to be associated with hang out.

I'm very humble when it comes to martial arts. I feel like we should all be one big happy family. Martial artists are a very small part of society, and all of us are shunned at some time or another by someone for our "hobby" or "skill". So I just dont get why we all have to bash each other rather than learning from each other.

I think the gracie's are amazing. I actually rooted for Royce when he fought Matt Hughes. I Like the martial arts, in ALL its facets. I love learning about all the different styles, and learning about their history and just everything I can soak in. I guess everyone can't be that way, and I just need to do my thing and not worry about anyone else.

I'm not gonna name the other forum i am sure you all can make your own guesses as to which one I am referring to.

Glad to know. You sound like a very nice and humble person, so I am glad that you are a member of our community. You know, there are so many questionable forums out there these days that we could get a pretty nice sized thread going on them, but we don't do that here on MT . Jokes aside, I am with you on the martial family thing. We are all brothers and sisters in the arts, so we should be working together, not against each other. There is so much we can all learn from each other if only the egos can be put aside. TMA, MMA, so what? We are all part of the same family. I personally love them both (even though I am sad that my favorite MMA competitor is going to retire .)

 

[SageGhost83]

BTW, I am WTF Taekwondo, so I definitely know what you mean...As Taekwondoin, be it ITF or WTF, we catch a lot of flak. Just keep on doing what you do and having a good time at it.

 

[Laurentkd]

Without reading any replys and off the top of my head I can think of two reasons.
the first seems to apply mostly to TKD- I think because there are so many TKD schools you just see a lot more poor quality schools. I know in my 20 mile radius there are probably a dozen tkd schools, but I can only think of one judo school and it is very small. So if someone drives around looking at schools they are going to see several low quality TKD schools, just because of percentages.

My second opinion is that right now because MMA is such a current fad, the vast majority of those training (including BJJ) haven't been in the arts that long. Everyone thinks their art is the greatest when they first start training, and if even the seniors you look up to in your art have only been training for the last 10 years or so then of course everyone is going to say that their art is the best. It just shows a lack of long term training- they have yet to see the holes in their art, the benifits of other arts, or even recognize aspects of their art that are the same or even influenced by other arts.Maybe I am under estimating the length of time MMA/BBJ type training has been around, but it all seems relatively new to me

The people you do NOT see saying their art is superior to all others are those who have been training for a long time, whether it is Master Stoker in TKD or Tez in MMA. I think it is just a maturity issue.
Now on to read everyone else's responses...

 

[azmyth]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I think the MMA fad (I love watching it as much as the next guy) has caused there to be alot of armchair martial artists who don't have the martial arts background to treat all arts with a fair look.

I'm not a fan of the way ATA runs things, but I can't deny that those that are skilled in it are good at what they do. We are in the 21st century, and these days schools cannot make it on bread alone. You almost have to have the kids programs, the extra curriculur demo team, etc. to make a living. But like already mentioned that doesn't mean the teaching and instruction isn't there as well.

The last school I attended.. (quit for this reason) was kind of a hybrid art. He also taught "MMA" which I thought was silly since the term MMA seems to be more of a ruleset on how you can fight vs. a style of fighting. Most people who think MMA.. like said already think automatically.. Muay Thai and BJJ. Yet there are plenty of guys who don't do either, that are just fine. Cung Le.. I think is what? San Shou? He's one of my favorite fighters in MMA today. He has a very good attitude about things. Anyway, back to the story. We had more adults than kids.. but sadly the "type" of adult we had were those with the "I want to be a UFC fighter" mentality. They don't know anything at all about martial arts.. they just want to beat someone up.

We had weapons classes as well... and we had a few people who would never show up for those, and would never show up for empty hands class unless we were sparring. The rest of the classes they did attend were the MMA classes. Most of them didn't follow the rules of the dojo with bowing, yelling, and just generally being reverent. It was just "fighting class" to them. They don't care how many movements Chon Ji has in it, or who it is named after, or anything. They just want you to show them how to put someone in a rear naked choke so they can be just like Chuck Liddell or whoever the BIG thing is in MMA today.

I enjoy MMA.. but I do not enjoy this new group of "we train to fight" martial artists.. who don't really seem to be martial artists at all. If I had rank in both BJJ and Muay Thai.. I'd be offended If I was called an "MMA fighter".

 

[ArmorOfGod]

This thread should keep going, but also azmyth should click here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52919
I think tkd has some very serious image issues and that thread talked about how to fix a lot of them.
The major tkd associations need to put their foot down and stop showcasing their 4 and 6 year old black belts. Every time I see tkd on tv, there is a black belt who isn't old enough to tie his shoes yet. Also, the tkd community needs to put a stop to claims that the art of tkd is over 1,000 years old. It's not and that's okay.
AoG

 

[Tez3]

I go on an MMA forum and to be honest TMA subjects never come up, so there's no TKD or karate bashing but what there is though is plenty of armchair critics. We basically know who all the fighters, promoters and people who actually train MMA are who go on and the health/training/fighting conversations are great but then you have the keyboard warriors who've never been near a gym or club in their lives. they'll pull to pieces a fighters performance without ever knowing what it's like to actually step up and fight someone.
I don't think America can claim MMA as Ace suggests, it was going around the world at the same time, it can claim UFC though. Many of us here though were watching Pride before we saw UFC. Check out chuck Liddels background as well as most of the top MMA fighters.
Personally rather than argue with people who probably never train in anything other than pressing keys on a keyboard I'd not bother going on the forums that bash other arts.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I go on an MMA forum and to be honest TMA subjects never come up, so there's no TKD or karate bashing but what there is though is plenty of armchair critics.

Lot's of armchair critics is very true Tez. TKD can be a very, very effective system of personal protection. Old style TKD was brutal and taught to the military who were feared. Trust me anyone who has seen or heard about the ROK training will admit that it is Spartan and really tough. So TKD can hold it's own.

Now why does TKD get hammered alot? Well it does come down to Dojang's that are run with the almighty dollar in mind. That does have alot to do with it. Also these same Training Halls are predominantly kid oriented so the art will take a hit for that. Funny thing is that almost all of the BJJ schools that I know have kid's in them now and are beginning to go for strong kid's classes. Heck back in the day you were lucky to get a Blue Belt in BJJ in two years or more. Now there are some schools guaranteeing a Blue Belt in a year. So the dollar is starting to play a role in BJJ too. That is a big factor in how people view an art that and also unfortunately ring success.

 

[K31]

Cognitive dissonance.

 

[azmyth]

Lot's of armchair critics is very true Tez. TKD can be a very, very effective system of personal protection. Old style TKD was brutal and taught to the military who were feared. Trust me anyone who has seen or heard about the ROK training will admit that it is Spartan and really tough. So TKD can hold it's own.

Now why does TKD get hammered alot? Well it does come down to Dojang's that are run with the almighty dollar in mind. That does have alot to do with it. Also these same Training Halls are predominantly kid oriented so the art will take a hit for that. Funny thing is that almost all of the BJJ schools that I know have kid's in them now and are beginning to go for strong kid's classes. Heck back in the day you were lucky to get a Blue Belt in BJJ in two years or more. Now there are some schools guaranteeing a Blue Belt in a year. So the dollar is starting to play a role in BJJ too. That is a big factor in how people view an art that and also unfortunately ring success.

I brought up both these points in the other forum and all it got me was a pocket of flames. I know about TKD's history, and what it was used for. The major problem is, this new breed of "martial artists" thats emerged since the UFC era cares nothing for history, and factual evidence of the arts. If Royce Gracie or whoever, can beat everyone then.. every art that isn't the art they do in UFC is useless. The problem with UFC is.... its so standardized now (which it has to be) that every fighter LOOKS like they are trained in BJJ.. when some of them are just really good wrestlers, really good judo practitioner's, etc. But the average armchair critic looking to get into UFC.. is of course going to shun everything thats not "beat your brains out" type training. Most of these type people were not martial arts enthusiasts until it became more like "street fighting". I have watched countless 80s MA movies, countless FC Karate fights, looked up information on countless different styles. I have nothing against boxing.. and in my eyes its just as "martial" as anything else.. but you don't see many boxers coming to a martial arts forum trying to bash everything thats not boxing (I'm sure it does happen from time to time)

I look at it this way. There wouldn't be this MMA fad today, if it weren't for traditional martial arts of ALL styles. Apparently these new kids didn't watch UFC 1. I competed in a tournament not long ago, and a BJJ school was there.. they had more kids than my TKD school has.. go figure that one.

I will never bash anyone elses style, as they are all great. I will say however, that I wish the age of the "muscled up jock" who just wants to learn to fight so he can go to the UFC.. would end. There are some really good martial artists in the UFC and they are being jaded by these wanna be's. Cung Le is a great example of what an MMA fighter SHOULD be about

 

[CuongNhuka]

If it makes you guys feel any better, Cuong Nhu gets a lot of crapp too. Our matterial is blended, so we're accussed of teaching of crappy Martial Arts (or flawed Martial Arts). We realise that almost everything in Martial Arts can be found in Kata, so we're acussed of doing nothing but Kata. We do Vietnamese Animal Forms, and the response to that are just hilarious (they don't seem to realise that there is more then one way to do Tiger Claw). People also don't seem to understand what a demostrastion is.

Anyways, sport schools really deserve the negitive reputation, but they're not limited to Tae Kwon Do, there are alot of Sport Karate, Sport Kung Fu, and Sport Jeet Kune Do. Not to mention, every school of Boxing, Wrestling, Kick Boxing, BJJ, or MMA is basicly a sport school. I'm sorry, but there is little reason to train in those styles other then sport.
Now then, are ther non-Sport Tae Kwon Do schools? OF COURSE! I think that no one is willing to bash Jhoon Rhee, he trains harder then most Americans, and is older then most of the people who train hard! I understand that he does 500 push ups, 500 sit ups, and runs 2 miles EVERY DAY! Considering that, I doubt if any is willing to say anything negitive about him.

 

[chrismay101]

I like watching the UFC fights and i think a high skill level is required what ever art you do but I think certain martial arts may work better than other arts in it. but in end the UFC has lots of rules about what you can and can't do. its not 2 men enter 1 man leaves

when watching the ufc not all/alot of the fighters have black belts or any belts sometimes in a martial art. they dip in take what they want.
there are lots of exceptions gracie for example. they do what they consider to works they don't care about tradition.

in the second fight between matt hughes and george st pierre(sorry about spellings) matt kept trying to take george down but with a good defence he was able to keep the fight up right and the striker went to town on the grappler.