Understanding Tae Kwon Do

[terryl965]

I really wonder sometimes when reading threads if the people responding to them really understand what TKD is? I mean is it just me or does it always come back to argueing over sport versus tradition and tradition versus origins? Why do we not see so much fighting going on in other arts like Karate or Judo or even Jujitsu? They have alot of diferent styles and such but seem to live together without killing each other all the time, sorry just trying to understand why TKD is so propular and at the same time so devastating to itself with bickering across the board?

 

[dancingalone]

I can speak for karate. Karate is much more niche in the sense that the physical technique and training philosophies diverge widely depending on the particular style you practice. For that reason, discussions are much more focused and esoteric, and it's not uncommon at all on a big, relatively 'generic' forum like MT for no one to have any idea at all what you are talking about. You have the same phenomenon happen to an even greater extent with the Chinese systems added to the relative obscure profile they have, resulting in a dearth of discussion.

TKD in my opinion is much more 'what you see is what you get' and it's truely popular world-wide.

 

[Tez3]

I think TKD is seen being one thing as Judo is. I don't think it's realised, even by other martial artists that there different organisations or even differences in the way it's practised and taught. Those that do know see only arguments between the organisations.
While I was training karate I was also training TKD with a friend to help him out and act as chaperon for the children. My friend didn't belong to any organisation but taught TKD in what I would call an old fashioned way, he taught people to fight and defend themselves. No gymnastics though the kicks were high, there were plenty of punches and strikes as well as the kicks, each aimed to destroy or stop an attacker. He's horrified that the Olympic TKD is becoming known as the TKD.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I really wonder sometimes when reading threads if the people responding to them really understand what TKD is? I mean is it just me or does it always come back to argueing over sport versus tradition and tradition versus origins? Why do we not see so much fighting going on in other arts like Karate or Judo or even Jujitsu? They have alot of diferent styles and such but seem to live together without killing each other all the time, sorry just trying to understand why TKD is so propular and at the same time so devastating to itself with bickering across the board?

Visit a Hapkido board sometime.

 

[Manny]

I really wonder sometimes when reading threads if the people responding to them really understand what TKD is? I mean is it just me or does it always come back to argueing over sport versus tradition and tradition versus origins? Why do we not see so much fighting going on in other arts like Karate or Judo or even Jujitsu? They have alot of diferent styles and such but seem to live together without killing each other all the time, sorry just trying to understand why TKD is so propular and at the same time so devastating to itself with bickering across the board?

Terry, I think the WTF/Olimpic Style of sparring has helped to the misconception that this is TKD and it's not, WTF/Olimpic sparring is just a game where competitors try to nail each other with a fancy kicks to get points (yes there are sometimes when a well knock out occur), the olimpic sparring rules, the fighting with low guard and just trowing high kicks most of the times to the air have contributed to de desqualification of TKD as a MA/SD oriented thing.

People think given TKD has evolved so much in game by points that TKD is untrue as a MA. Somebody mention Judo here, in judo is the same, in the judo dojo the sensei teach the pupils the sporty technikes, for healty sake (minimice injures, judo can break you a leg or arm or even disloc a shoulder) and for compettion sport and Judo in some way has lost his budo context too.

I hope poomsae competition will be the next step in TKD competition (at least as popular as kyorugi) to show people the truly martiality inside TKD.

As you know I really dislike the WTF set of rules and the WTF style of competition (Kyorugi), WTF has propelled TKD to the sky about to show TKD to the world but as a sport contact/point apreciation thing.

I love the MA inside TKD, you know the strong stances,blocks and punches, the hard kicking, the joint manipulation, the trows, etc,etc and dislike alot the banal/aerial/fancy kicking that have no sense in a true street confrontation.

When other Martial Artists laug at me about TKD and tell me my MA is only silly fancy kicks it really turns me on but I politely tell these people to try a full cardio TKD class with some sparring to try some good kicks and take a second guess.

It's our job to show people the true TKD not only the WTF one.

Manny

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think TKD is seen being one thing as Judo is. I don't think it's realised, even by other martial artists that there different organisations or even differences in the way it's practised and taught. Those that do know see only arguments between the organisations.
While I was training karate I was also training TKD with a friend to help him out and act as chaperon for the children. My friend didn't belong to any organisation but taught TKD in what I would call an old fashioned way, he taught people to fight and defend themselves. No gymnastics though the kicks were high, there were plenty of punches and strikes as well as the kicks, each aimed to destroy or stop an attacker. He's horrified that the Olympic TKD is becoming known as the TKD.

I can relate to the last line in your post about olympic tkd becoming known as THE tkd. For me personally , I think both can co exist and whilst I do not do olympic tkd I can respect what they do and have no problems with it. Unfortunately my way of thinking is slowly becoming the minority. I am hearing of more and more people who do a very combat, self defence style of tkd becoming frustrated that the general martial arts community (or even non martal arts community) assuming that tkd is all high kicks , no punches etc etc and a lot of these people are taking their frustrations out on olympic tkd. I remember my first night of training when I first met my instructor and I commented on how good it is for tkd that it is an olympic sport and he gave me a very dirty look and I had no idea why. Years on and I am now good mates with my instructor and we hang out regularly and I am now aware that he hates olympic tkd with a passion (and dont even get him started on taegek forms or the kukkiwon). He blames it for ruining the whole image of the art and can lecture you all night about it given the chance. Again , I dont share those views but more and more people I talk to are sounding more and more like my instructor.

 

[terryl965]

Visit a Hapkido board sometime.

No thank you, if it is as bad or worst than TKD I will pass my friend.

 

[Gorilla]

Terry, I think the WTF/Olimpic Style of sparring has helped to the misconception that this is TKD and it's not, WTF/Olimpic sparring is just a game where competitors try to nail each other with a fancy kicks to get points (yes there are sometimes when a well knock out occur), the olimpic sparring rules, the fighting with low guard and just trowing high kicks most of the times to the air have contributed to de desqualification of TKD as a MA/SD oriented thing.

People think given TKD has evolved so much in game by points that TKD is untrue as a MA. Somebody mention Judo here, in judo is the same, in the judo dojo the sensei teach the pupils the sporty technikes, for healty sake (minimice injures, judo can break you a leg or arm or even disloc a shoulder) and for compettion sport and Judo in some way has lost his budo context too.

I hope poomsae competition will be the next step in TKD competition (at least as popular as kyorugi) to show people the truly martiality inside TKD.

As you know I really dislike the WTF set of rules and the WTF style of competition (Kyorugi), WTF has propelled TKD to the sky about to show TKD to the world but as a sport contact/point apreciation thing.

I love the MA inside TKD, you know the strong stances,blocks and punches, the hard kicking, the joint manipulation, the trows, etc,etc and dislike alot the banal/aerial/fancy kicking that have no sense in a true street confrontation.

When other Martial Artists laug at me about TKD and tell me my MA is only silly fancy kicks it really turns me on but I politely tell these people to try a full cardio TKD class with some sparring to try some good kicks and take a second guess.

It's our job to show people the true TKD not only the WTF one.

Manny

Manny,

I respect your posts and can see that you are a man that loves TKD but on this subject we don't agree.

 

[Manny]

Manny,

I respect your posts and can see that you are a man that loves TKD but on this subject we don't agree.

Gorilla thank you very much for been polite my friend, it's possible my way of thinking is not like at all for everybody here and I respect the diferent way of thinking here.

We can agree or not but the most importatnt is the respect that we must show to each other, you are a truly gentelman.

Manny

 

[Bondservant]

My two cents, humble respect.

Tae kwon do teaches martial techniques. Not all instructors are created equal. If the student is taught the martial skills of tae kwon do and how to apply them, then they know a martial art. Its weight is what the student makes of it. I have trained Taekwondo for approximately 13 years and have instructed for 10 of those.
The Student must have confidence in their techniques. Be open to what makes sense. In the spirit of the pupose of the developement of any martial art is to have certain qualities. IE: Quick, Effective, Efficient, Powerful, and GET the job done to protect ones self and ones country. Any master who is truly a master should be open to effective technique. That is why nearly every martial art has a closed fist punch, knife hand strike, kick(you pick one), etc. etc.

In the end I think "So what?" I would rather anyone and everyone to not have confidence in what I know or my abilities because I am a tae kwon do practitioner. That truely gives me an advantage over any would be attacker. It is up to me to surprise my nay sayers and aggressors with the end result....Whatever GETS the job done!

"A wise man will learn from a fool because he will listen, yet a fool won't learn from even the wisest of men because he won't listen" origin unknown

To be confined to a box will in the end, leave you as a crushed box; while water will then adapt to its environment and the stressors therin to survive/succeed.

thank you!

 

[chungdokwan123]

I think TKD is seen being one thing as Judo is. I don't think it's realised, even by other martial artists that there different organisations or even differences in the way it's practised and taught.

I, for quite some time, didn't understand many of the differences that exist in TKD. I've tended to view things through a prism of "Camouflage belts and an abundance of showy patches......bad." "Standard white dobak with typical belt colors......good." I suppose 8 years in the military helped shape that kind of thinking......and there is some merit to that logic. Often times what is lacking in substance is made up for in the projection of image. Not always, of course, but often.

Those that do know see only arguments between the organisations.

My oh my, how I have come to view the WTF/ITF split with utter disappointment.......and within those two realms themselves there seems to be an abundance of strife.

He's horrified that the Olympic TKD is becoming known as the TKD.

Serious question.......how do you view Olympic TKD?

I'm relatively new to this art, and I don't ever want to disrespect any facet of it.....but the longer I practice I get the feeling that Olympic sparring is so purely points based that prudence demands that participants refrain from contact in order to prevent their being scored upon. There doesn't seem to be much show-casing of the talent that I would assume must be possessed in order to rise to that level of competition.....which is a shame.

Does that seem a fair assessment?

 

[Tez3]

Looking at Olympic TKD I see a game being played, a skilful one admittedly but still a game. I can't see it as fighting or as martial arts. It's the synchonised swimming of the martial arts world, it's practitioners work hard at it, it's fun to watch but ultimately isn't much use other than as a hobby. Like other sports that rely on judges it has problems with bias unlike athletics where you finish either first or jump/throw the furthest. Its a problem in other sports of course but TKD is the one that boasts its tenets so one has the right to expect more of them not less.
Through training with my friend I have seen TKD as a fighting martial art as good as any out there. I don't think it was just the way he taught it.

 

[chungdokwan123]

Unfortunately my way of thinking is slowly becoming the minority. I am hearing of more and more people who do a very combat, self defence style of tkd becoming frustrated that the general martial arts community (or even non martal arts community) assuming that tkd is all high kicks , no punches etc etc and a lot of these people are taking their frustrations out on olympic tkd.

What's the downside to that way of thinking?

I remember my first night of training when I first met my instructor and I commented on how good it is for tkd that it is an olympic sport and he gave me a very dirty look and I had no idea why.

My Kwan Jang Nim appreciated my initial enthusiasm over Olympic TKD.....but I believe he harbors some of the same feelings as your instructor. No dirty looks......no negative comments......only support and assistance in my quest for knowledge, but there was a slight look in his eyes that seemed to suggest a thought of....."Some day you'll understand".

Years on and I am now good mates with my instructor and we hang out regularly and I am now aware that he hates olympic tkd with a passion (and dont even get him started on taegek forms or the kukkiwon).

What are your thoughts on the Taegeuk poomse? On the Kukkiwon? As to the Kukkiwon, I still haven't formed concrete opinions. I am affiliated with the WTF......therefore it is what it is.

On the Taegeuk poomse, I consider them to be "a little more to the point" in acquiring useful techniques at a given Gup level......and as stated before, I'm still the proverbial "babe in the woods" as concerns the art, so don't hold naivete against me.......but I love to watch ALL poomse. In fact, I've committed myself to learn, after being given a new Taegeuk form, its Palgwe equivalent. That way, I'll get the best of both worlds. I enjoy practicing BOTH immensely.

He blames it for ruining the whole image of the art and can lecture you all night about it given the chance. Again , I dont share those views but more and more people I talk to are sounding more and more like my instructor.

I think I can understand his point of view. Doesn't it seem likely that when something becomes show-cased in such a commercial way......as Olympic TKD is, and more so all the time......that the climate will invite those who have less commitment to the art and more commitment to reaching a certain pinnacle where the endorsements are seen as the ultimate reward?

Your thoughts?

 

[TKDHomeSchooler]

I think TKD is seen being one thing as Judo is. I don't think it's realised, even by other martial artists that there different organisations or even differences in the way it's practised and taught. Those that do know see only arguments between the organisations.
While I was training karate I was also training TKD with a friend to help him out and act as chaperon for the children. My friend didn't belong to any organisation but taught TKD in what I would call an old fashioned way, he taught people to fight and defend themselves. No gymnastics though the kicks were high, there were plenty of punches and strikes as well as the kicks, each aimed to destroy or stop an attacker. He's horrified that the Olympic TKD is becoming known as the TKD.

Only having been in TKD for 2 years now I can say I agree with you. I have done research to see what other TKD schools do, WTF Vs. ITF, etc.

I am glad that my instructors teach us the self defense aspect before the sport. We also have a slight mixture of Kenpo and now some Krav Maga mixed in with our training. I think it rounds it out.

For example if I ever get in a fight and have to defend myself, I will not be trying to kick the opponent in the head with a spinning side kick for 2 points, I', most likely going to charge him when he strikes to get in side and use a knife hand to the throat or nose with a hammer fist. Nothing fancy, only violent, fast, and effective. I am too old to be learning pretty tricks of jumping over 5 guys and popping a balloon with a spear hand while in air. Nope. You step to me to harm me or mine and you better damn well be more violent than I will be.

 

[dancingalone]

On the Taegeuk poomse, I consider them to be "a little more to the point" in acquiring useful techniques at a given Gup level......and as stated before, I'm still the proverbial "babe in the woods" as concerns the art, so don't hold naivete against me.......but I love to watch ALL poomse. In fact, I've committed myself to learn, after being given a new Taegeuk form, its Palgwe equivalent. That way, I'll get the best of both worlds. I enjoy practicing BOTH immensely.

What material advantages do you see yourself gaining from practicing both the taegeuk and palgwe sets?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I, for quite some time, didn't understand many of the differences that exist in TKD. I've tended to view things through a prism of "Camouflage belts and an abundance of showy patches......bad." "Standard white dobak with typical belt colors......good." I suppose 8 years in the military helped shape that kind of thinking......and there is some merit to that logic. Often times what is lacking in substance is made up for in the projection of image. Not always, of course, but often.

My oh my, how I have come to view the WTF/ITF split with utter disappointment.......and within those two realms themselves there seems to be an abundance of strife.

Serious question.......how do you view Olympic TKD?

I'm relatively new to this art, and I don't ever want to disrespect any facet of it.....but the longer I practice I get the feeling that Olympic sparring is so purely points based that prudence demands that participants refrain from contact in order to prevent their being scored upon. There doesn't seem to be much show-casing of the talent that I would assume must be possessed in order to rise to that level of competition.....which is a shame.

Does that seem a fair assessment?

how do I view olympic tkd? To be honest , I respect their skill and stamina and reflexes etc but the sport itself I just cant get into. I find it as boring as watching grass grow and it disappoints me that of all the hundreds of great strikes we are taught only a couple are on display in olympic tkd. All in all , I dont feel it is a true reflection of the art and if our martial art is to be on display for the world to see I would rather it better reflect what we actually learn to do. As far as taegek forms go , I dont like them , but I think that is only because I am set in my ways and have always done the palgwe forms. And on your last topic , I do feel that some of the animosity toward olympic sparring from other ma's and the general public stems from jelousy. Many sports have tried and failed to get olympic recognition and tkd has been made an olympic event which has helped boost the popularity of tkd and has helped financially and I think this has led to some other sports "bagging out" tkd because it was successful where others failed.

 

[chungdokwan123]

What material advantages do you see yourself gaining from practicing both the taegeuk and palgwe sets?

Actually, I rolled out the welcome mat for you more experienced folks to tell me what I might gain from practicing both. I'm not 100% sure about how it might benefit.......I certainly do not envision learning both forms as harming me.

I suppose I look at it from this position......I see respected folks on both sides of the coin. One side lauds Palgwe.......the other, Taegeuk. This division does not necessarily mean that any one side is wrong......therefore, not wanting to disrespect either faction, hell......I'll embrace the division and learn both! There certainly must be something good in both styles of poomse......and adding to one's knowledge base is generally considered a positive thing.

The major reason, however, that I want both under my belt is that I love doing poomse.......I find that at my age they help me develop better balance and focus. I love watching them.....I love doing them.

Thoughts?

 

[dancingalone]

Actually, I rolled out the welcome mat for you more experienced folks to tell me what I might gain from practicing both. I'm not 100% sure about how it might benefit.......I certainly do not envision learning both forms as harming me.

It depends on whether you believe the forms to embody and codify a specific set of fighting instructions and philosophy or not. Certainly the older forms inherited from karate have this intent implicit within them, although the meaning and understanding has often been been diluted and bowdlerized through the translation from Okinawa to Japan to Korea. If you practice patterns at this higher level, I believe it's actually detrimental to practice too many kata/hyung. Once you reach an appropriate level of knowledge and physical attainment, you should focus on mastering 2-4 of the patterns. Even really understanding and being able to apply 1 'intermediate' form like Passai/Bassai/Bal Sek (whatever you want to call it) is sufficient for general self-defense.

In my opinion, the more recent taekwondo forms were not designed by their creators with that in mind. Instead they were created, often by committee, to be a dictionary of techniques with combination of motions that frankly look awkward at times to me. Applications theory seem to be somewhat limited in the sense that while some is taught, they don't really coalesce to be a coherent fighting style like in the older forms. Consider my example above of Passai - it's an aggressive pattern where quick snap movements are emphasized to obtain an advantage quickly. It's not a form I advise my stronger and larger students to specialize in as I believe their physical build should predispose them to another set of tactics altogether.

Without a conceptual framework behind the pattern, forms practice are really all about practicing basics, building aerobic fitness, and perhaps learning a stray application here or there. In that scenario, I suppose there's not much harm in learning multiple form sets, other than the time factor and the inherent truth that specialization leads to greater proficiency within the smaller amount of material practiced.

I am certain there will be many here who do practice these forms who will disagree with me though. For what it's worth, I am a regular instructor in a tae kwon do school now. They specifically brought me in to apply Okinawan karate methodology to the Chang Hon patterns they use.

 

[terryl965]

Dancingalone you have some great points about the forms, but I am confused by your statement about They specifically brought me in to apply Okinawan karate methodology to the Chang Hon patterns they use. What is it you are bringing to the Tuls that was nt already there by GM Cho?

 

[Tez3]

Dancingalone you have some great points about the forms, but I am confused by your statement about They specifically brought me in to apply Okinawan karate methodology to the Chang Hon patterns they use. What is it you are bringing to the Tuls that was nt already there by GM Cho?

Please, do answer as I'm interested in what you call the Okinawan methodology!