Not effective?

Cyriacus

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Well in that case I guess I should just pack my bags for Australia. . .

Then again the kind of martial arts instruction I'm looking for may be different from what you guys think is the way things should be.
Hehe :)
And whats Your idea?
Also, dont Migrate. Just dont.
 

jks9199

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Let's be honest. Most commercial TKD schools are providing the service and product their customers want. They don't want a 2 hour workout before the training even starts. They don't want to practice one technique for an hour in class. Most aren't even seriously interested in self defense. Parents want an activity coupled with day care, with some structure. And so on. Other TKD programs are geared towards competition, whether Olympic or regional/local. As a group, TKD schools have a very successful business model, as reflected in their proliferation. There's nothing wrong with that -- but you have to also realize that, as more places pop up, you get more that are perhaps less oriented on teaching good martial arts.

Most of the people who want a really hard workout and intense fighting training currently are gravitating towards MMA programs. They're popping up in a lot of places -- and going under almost as fast, it sometimes seems. (I've seen 3 MMA clubs open their doors and close within a year, and I haven't really looked hard.) And you're seeing more people show up there because "it's a cool thing to do" with a lesser interest in being beat up and banged up. After all, they have to go to work tomorrow, and can't really do that if they have to explain black eyes or broken bones. Maybe their employer isn't going to give them light duty if they blow out a knee... (A guy I work with was fortunate that our employer was willing to let him do light duty for several months after he did just that...)

As to the quality of different levels of MMA... Well, duh! Let's see... UFC currently has the market share and money, at least in the USA. They can actually give their top fighters contracts and sponsorship connections that let them make training their job. Most of the lower tier fighters have to either find their own (often local and limited) sponsorships or work a "day" job and train around work. They're not going to be the same as the elite levels... You'll see the same thing if you look at an NFL team and a local semi-pro football team, for much the same reason.
 

Tez3

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Andy, you I think are making the mistake many make when talking about MMA and the UFC. In the UK fighters are amateurs (using pro rules) fighting because they enjoy it, there's no money in MMA in this country, to compare fighters here who all have day jobs and train MMA the same way you train TKD, probably for the same reasons, with the fighters in the UFC like comparing the hospital radio DJs with the BBC ones. The fighters you see in the UFC are professional athletes. You wouldn't do it in other sports such as football, those who turn out on Sunday morning aren't compared to Liverpool, Man Utd players etc.
We rarely can have day before weigh ins because the fighters are still at work, many of our shows are on Sundays when venue hire is cheapest so fighters have to go to work Monday morning. Can't see the UFC fighters doing that. We have some small shows which do have 'not so good' fighters on, they enjoy it just as much as the TMA people enjoy their kumite and katas comps they do. No one compares the people from a small 'an hour twice a week' TKD club going to a comp to the top Olympic competitors. For many just like you taking part is the thing not the winning even though it's nice to win. It's a sport that many like doing, you don't compare them to pro athletes.
 

andyjeffries

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We seem to have got our wires crossed.

Andy, you I think are making the mistake many make when talking about MMA and the UFC. In the UK fighters are amateurs (using pro rules) fighting because they enjoy it, there's no money in MMA in this country, to compare fighters here who all have day jobs and train MMA the same way you train TKD, probably for the same reasons, with the fighters in the UFC like comparing the hospital radio DJs with the BBC ones. The fighters you see in the UFC are professional athletes. You wouldn't do it in other sports such as football, those who turn out on Sunday morning aren't compared to Liverpool, Man Utd players etc.
We rarely can have day before weigh ins because the fighters are still at work, many of our shows are on Sundays when venue hire is cheapest so fighters have to go to work Monday morning. Can't see the UFC fighters doing that. We have some small shows which do have 'not so good' fighters on, they enjoy it just as much as the TMA people enjoy their kumite and katas comps they do. No one compares the people from a small 'an hour twice a week' TKD club going to a comp to the top Olympic competitors. For many just like you taking part is the thing not the winning even though it's nice to win. It's a sport that many like doing, you don't compare them to pro athletes.

I understand all that. However, you were talking about armchair fans vs real fans and the UFC being overpriced. I understood that to mean that the quality was comparable, but non-UFC was "where it was at" and given that UFC is expensive/overpriced you can get almost as good fighters in the lesser well known promotions.

Then from your comment above, it sounds like the UFC being expensive is right because you're viewing a much higher quality of fighters. I don't watch much sunday morning football (except for my little boy who happens to play on a Sunday morning football), but I'll happily watch premiership/champions league/internationals on telly/in person. I don't hold it against them (the same as I don't hold it against most UK MMAers), I just have less interest in watching them.

I guess it does make me an armchair fan, but I guess I misunderstood you, thinking the UK organisations were approaching the mainstream class.
 

Tez3

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We seem to have got our wires crossed.



I understand all that. However, you were talking about armchair fans vs real fans and the UFC being overpriced. I understood that to mean that the quality was comparable, but non-UFC was "where it was at" and given that UFC is expensive/overpriced you can get almost as good fighters in the lesser well known promotions.

Then from your comment above, it sounds like the UFC being expensive is right because you're viewing a much higher quality of fighters. I don't watch much sunday morning football (except for my little boy who happens to play on a Sunday morning football), but I'll happily watch premiership/champions league/internationals on telly/in person. I don't hold it against them (the same as I don't hold it against most UK MMAers), I just have less interest in watching them.

I guess it does make me an armchair fan, but I guess I misunderstood you, thinking the UK organisations were approaching the mainstream class.


No, UFC is overpriced full stop. We do have some very good promotions with very good fighters on, some do try for the UFC but can't afford to get across to the States for the auditions. We've only had two auditions here. You, to my mind, were labelling all UK MMA as being inferior to the UFC but so much of UK MMA is amatuer in that the fighters aren't full time. We do however have some amazing fighters for all that. When UFC first came here, a home grown show, Cage Rage had larger crowds, BAMMA, Angrr Management, P&G and Cage Warriors have always had good crowds, you'll find the very good fighters on these shows, as I assume you haven't been to these, the shows you were criticising would have been the small amateur promotions hence my post.
 

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Hehe :)
And whats Your idea?
Also, dont Migrate. Just dont.

Well, as stated before I DON'T think you should have to wait any more than 3 months max to start sparring.

Secondly, and let me preface this by saying that I DON'T think this is the only legitimate way for a TKD school to be run and still be effective and train skilled practitioners, but I'd like to see a TKD school that is more like a kickboxing school. You know, the patterns are still taught and practiced, and the techniques are retained, but the general attitude and approach is one of kickboxing, with a heavy emphasis on sparring, live training, and heavier-than-light contact.
 
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ralphmcpherson

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Well in that case I guess I should just pack my bags for Australia. . .

Then again the kind of martial arts instruction I'm looking for may be different from what you guys think is the way things should be.
Or Europe, or new zealand or many other places. My brother has been in europe travelling all over the place for the last 3 years and from what I hear there are some great tkd clubs over there also. And yeah, pack your bags and come over here, there are some really good tkd clubs over here also, some big independent orgs that teach tkd the way it should be:)
 

ralphmcpherson

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Well, as stated before I DON'T think you should have to wait any more than 3 months max to start sparring.

Secondly, and let me preface this by saying that I DON'T think this is the only legitimate way for a TKD school to be run and still be effective and train skilled practitioners, but I'd like to see a TKD school that is more like a kickboxing school. You know, the patterns are still taught and practiced, and the techniques are retained, but the general attitude and approach is one of kickboxing, with a heavy emphasis on sparring, live training, and heavier-than-light contact.
You just summed up pretty much every tkd club in my area. The only difference is you will have to wait to spar full on. Ths happens in many arts though, a friend of mine with no experience just started training muay thai and has to wait 3 months before padding up and getting in the ring, I did shotokan as a kid and there was no immediate sparring. The thing with tkd which is great is that once you do start sparring the emphasis on sparring is huge. We spar all the time after blue belt. If someone does tkd for 10 years and spars heavily every lesson for all of those 10 years except for only their first 3 months, in the grand scheme of things that 3 months is a drop in the ocean. But other than that, we train exactly as you described, its more like kick boxing but with a larger range of kicks and more self defence techs such as wrist grabs, joint manipulation and hapkido sort of stuff.
 
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Tez3

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The UFC is the absolute gold standard of MMA at this point in time. You can criticize the organization for any number of things, but at the end of the day there's no question that they have the best fighters in the world and that even large organizations like DREAM, Strikeforce, and Bellator are nothing more than feeder orgs for the UFC. Before Strikeforce was purchased by Zuffa you could still make an argument that there were some very good fighters--perhaps the best individual fighters in any given weight class--elsewhere, but now that even SF has been swallowed up whoever the UFC champion is in any weight class is basically just the MMA champion.

You can think that of course, many other countries would disagree.
 

Flying Crane

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You know, the patterns are still taught and practiced, and the techniques are retained, but the general attitude and approach is one of kickboxing, with a heavy emphasis on sparring, live training, and heavier-than-light contact.

I don't have a dog in this here race, but this brought a question to mind: what do you see as the purpose of the patterns and techniques, if the fighting approach is essentially kickboxing? How does it fit together?

thx.
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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I don't have a dog in this here race, but this brought a question to mind: what do you see as the purpose of the patterns and techniques, if the fighting approach is essentially kickboxing? How does it fit together?

thx.
And similarly, someone else posted recently something like "When the TKD instructor taught the "fighting stance" I had to wonder what the other stances were for". :)
 

ralphmcpherson

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And similarly, someone else posted recently something like "When the TKD instructor taught the "fighting stance" I had to wonder what the other stances were for". :)
Where we train back stance is also referred to a s 'fighting stance', sparring will usually start in this stance. Other stances are used in sparring also, but more commonly they can be used in self defence techniques. Try doing a self defence tech with no real stance and they really dont work unless the opponent is 'playing along'. Then do the tech again and drop into a low front stance or horse stance (for instance) and the opponent will drop like a bag of cement. Hard to explain in words, but stances play a huge role in self defence techs.
 

SPX

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You just summed up pretty much every tkd club in my area. The only difference is you will have to wait to spar full on. Ths happens in many arts though, a friend of mine with no experience just started training muay thai and has to wait 3 months before padding up and getting in the ring, I did shotokan as a kid and there was no immediate sparring. The thing with tkd which is great is that once you do start sparring the emphasis on sparring is huge. We spar all the time after blue belt. If someone does tkd for 10 years and spars heavily every lesson for all of those 10 years except for only their first 3 months, in the grand scheme of things that 3 months is a drop in the ocean. But other than that, we train exactly as you described, its more like kick boxing but with a larger range of kicks and more self defence techs such as wrist grabs, joint manipulation and hapkido sort of stuff.

Well y'all need to pack up some of your instructors and ship them over here to start schools or something, because I'm tired of the situation sucking.

Also, I said that 3 months is fine. But I know one poster mentioned earlier that at many schools sparring is not introduced until almost black belt. So you get to spar like . . . what? . . . in your third year? C'mon. . .
 

SPX

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You can think that of course, many other countries would disagree.

Every serious pro MMA fighter wants to fight in the UFC. Not only is the pay the best, but the competition is also the best in the world. It's no coincidence that the champs of a lot of smaller organizations will come to the UFC and end up being mid-level fighters or worse. It's just on another level.
 

Tez3

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I don't have a dog in this here race, but this brought a question to mind: what do you see as the purpose of the patterns and techniques, if the fighting approach is essentially kickboxing? How does it fit together?

thx.

Very good question, I'd like to read the answer.
 

Tez3

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Every serious pro MMA fighter wants to fight in the UFC. Not only is the pay the best, but the competition is also the best in the world. It's no coincidence that the champs of a lot of smaller organizations will come to the UFC and end up being mid-level fighters or worse. It's just on another level.

No, a lot of very good fighters go to Japan, equally good money and prestige in a country knowledgable and respectful of martial arts. Japanese comps are the Michelin starred places of MMA, the UFC is the McDonalds, makes a lot money, well known and is popular but not the best.
 

SPX

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I don't have a dog in this here race, but this brought a question to mind: what do you see as the purpose of the patterns and techniques, if the fighting approach is essentially kickboxing? How does it fit together?

thx.

I'm using kickboxing as a general term. Sanshou is a form of kickboxing, but the fighters the style produces don't really look like Muay Thai guys in the ring. TKD can be the same way, having a kickboxing focus, but producing fighters with a different flavor because the style and techniques are different.
 

ralphmcpherson

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Well y'all need to pack up some of your instructors and ship them over here to start schools or something, because I'm tired of the situation sucking.

Also, I said that 3 months is fine. But I know one poster mentioned earlier that at many schools sparring is not introduced until almost black belt. So you get to spar like . . . what? . . . in your third year? C'mon. . .
It cant be all that bad over there surely. There are many tkd school owners here on martial talk who seem to run great schools teaching the 'real stuff'. I would hope it hasnt got so bad there that with a little shopping around you couldnt find a good school. It seems from what I read here that the problem is largely an American one, because posters from other places dont seem to have the same concerns. A friend of my wife's learned tkd in the UK, and he's a very good martial artist and he tells me there are many good tkd schools over there also.
 
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