Not effective?

WC_lun

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It is pretty simple really. If you train for point fighting, Olympic style TKD, you aren't training for MMA and you won't do very well in it. Just like if a MMA fighter tried to do Olympic style sparring, he would not be able to do well. The issue becomes when people think you can train for one thing and be good at another. It does not work that way. You will fight (perform a sport) how you train.
 

ralphmcpherson

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I would definitely never stay at a school where I have to wait more than 3 months to start sparring. There's just no reason for it. Grenadier, I'm sure everything you've said is true, but that's definitely not a path that would appeal to me, or honestly a path that I think is maximally efficient.

In Judo, you start doing Randori immediately. In a kickboxing gym, it's the same way . . . almost immediate sparring. There's a good reason for that, in my opinion.
I have to disagree. We dont spar until blue belt (9 months of training), starting sparring too early can cause sloppiness of technique, loss of confidence and unneccessary injuries. A student should first grasp the basics and start committing them to muscle memory before sparring begins in my opinion. Martial arts is a very long journey, there's plenty of time for sparring after the beginner has gone through the early stages of training and has begun to grasp what its all about.
 

SPX

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"Grapple raped"??? Now that's not a nice expression.

Well in the case of Dennis Hallman, maybe "wrestle-raped" would be more accurate, but yeah, that's what happened


All MMA people I know say grappling is not what you want to be doing in a self defence situation, if you are really really stuck on the floor use it of course but you want to be up on your feet asap.

I would say that being on your back and in guard is not what you want. But judo is an excellent art for self-defense, with its throws and top-control. Would you want to get slammed to the ground--or potentially spiked on your head--on the concrete? It could be devastating. Deadly even. Judo is scary dangerous off the mats.


SPX, you've posted this in the TKD section but are also talking a lot about karate as if the two were the same, it's a tad confusing, which do you actually mean?

I have a TKD background. But we all know that TKD came from Shotokan. Yes, TKD has changed a lot over the years (more so when it comes to the WTF), but the arts are still very similar. I'm not implying that they're interchangeable, but it's like talking about two brothers who are still quite close.
 

Cyriacus

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I have to disagree. We dont spar until blue belt (9 months of training), starting sparring too early can cause sloppiness of technique, loss of confidence and unneccessary injuries. A student should first grasp the basics and start committing them to muscle memory before sparring begins in my opinion. Martial arts is a very long journey, there's plenty of time for sparring after the beginner has gone through the early stages of training and has begun to grasp what its all about.
There are ways for it to work - Light Sparring can Train in Ranging early on. But it has to be closely monitored.

I would say that being on your back and in guard is not what you want. But judo is an excellent art for self-defense, with its throws and top-control. Would you want to get slammed to the ground--or potentially spiked on your head--on the concrete? It could be devastating. Deadly even. Judo is scary dangerous off the mats.

Blunt Forced Trauma isnt exactly any better.
 

SPX

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I have to disagree. We dont spar until blue belt (9 months of training), starting sparring too early can cause sloppiness of technique, loss of confidence and unneccessary injuries. A student should first grasp the basics and start committing them to muscle memory before sparring begins in my opinion. Martial arts is a very long journey, there's plenty of time for sparring after the beginner has gone through the early stages of training and has begun to grasp what its all about.

Personally, I feel like you learn by doing.

When I visited an MT gym recently I was invited to spar after a single class. Why? Because you learn by taking a technique that you've learned in class and actually applying it in real life.

If you don't mind, allow me to quote from a Feb. 2011 Black Belt magazine article with Scott Adkins, TKDist-turned-Kickboxer (who eventually became an actor):

"Pretty much anyone can learn to throw a punch or kick within one lesson . . . The only way to get your stand-up to function right is to spar. It's one thing to be able to hit a pad or punching bag hard; it's another to hit a moving target while trying to not to get hit. You have to be comfortable trading blows with an opponent inside the pocket."

I think that to say a person needs 9 months+ of training before they should spar is simply a fallacy. Sparring should begin extremely early on. At white belt, you learn to do a reverse punch and a few kicks. Then you test. Then you become a yellow belt because you have demonstrated proficiency in those skills. So it's not time to try to use them in a live environment?

THIS is the problem with taekwondo. I call it Ostrich-Ryu. Head in the sand. People just doing things the way they've always been done because that's what they were taught.

This is a new era. Judo and MT guys spar almost immediately once they begin training . . . is it a coincidence that they both happen to be effective at employing their art in real time? No! They are effective PRECISELY because they begin doing so as early as possible.

I love TKD, but we as a community have to stop making excuses. It's really no wonder the style is widely regarded as an art for women and kids, or people who just want a good workout. It's not like there's any real fighting involved.
 

andyjeffries

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You will find UK MMA a bit different because we have cultural differences, the Americans have a lot of wrestlers as it's a sport taught in schools and colleges ( it would be good if anything like that was taught here) while we have the traditional ground game ie Judo, JJ and BJJ. Even our Olympic wrestlers aren't British being brought in from the old Eastern Bloc. We have most fighters coming from a TMA background rather than boxing, boxing here doesn't like us, Barry Hearn for one swearing he'll see us banned.

Thanks for that, very interesting to hear the perspective of a UK MMAist.

There's more Brit MMA on tele these days if you have satellite or Freeview, I'm Pm you when I know somes on though ideally go to a good MMA show, it's fun and enjoyable.

Definitely, please do PM me when you know something good is coming up.

I've been to two UFCs in the UK (not the last one) and they were awesome. I was planning on going to everyone but was due to be going away for work when the last one was on so I didn't get a ticket (then ended up not needing to go away).
 

SPX

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I've been to two UFCs in the UK (not the last one) and they were awesome. I was planning on going to everyone but was due to be going away for work when the last one was on so I didn't get a ticket (then ended up not needing to go away).

So do you guys get annoyed that Michael Bisping is always in the main event or is that awesome?
 

andyjeffries

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The BTCB Syllabus (you can google for it, it's freely downloadable) says the following on sparring:

All students, at all grades, should practise sparring, unless there are medical grounds to forbid it. Sparring consists of various forms, including (amongst others) three-step sparring, one-step sparring, one-for-one kicking and free sparring. Free sparring may be non-contact, light-contact or full-contact. Full-contact free sparring is not permitted until the students have reached at least 9th kup. Instructors should assess students’ abilities and behaviour before allowing them to participate in free sparring. All forms of free sparring should be practised under full WTF rules. Instructors must ensure that they and their students are familiar with the latest rules and competition procedures. Students must have all personal protective equipment (PPE) (mouth, head, trunk, arm, hand, leg, and groin guards). PPE is compulsory for light-contact and full-contact sparring practice and for any form of self-defence practice that involves contact or the use of weapons (e.g., wooden practice knives).

So they advocate all students start sparring, but only light contact until they've passed their first test.

In my club (children only), white belts spar with the instructors (which is more just messing around to get their confidence up that they can move in and out and try their kicks). When they reach yellow tags, they do sparring drills against other students. When they reach yellow belt (and have at least a hogu and head protector) then they can spar with other students.
 

Cyriacus

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What do you mean?
Being dumped on ones Head is not fun.
Blunt Forced Trauma Injuries arent a sponge bath by Pixies either.

I wasnt contradicting You - Im more saying as an expansion, that being slammed into Concrete is not fun, and nor is Blunt Forced Trauma. That thing that happens when Youre struck by something hard with a decent level of force. Like someones Fist. Being dumped on Your Head after being put into a controlled position, then taken down/thrown is akin to being put into a controlled position, then having a decent shot put into the side of your skull. And even if the Punch is untrained, and delivers little Power, Your Head hitting the same Concrete as You go down? Not much different.

The Reason I add this expansion whenever I see statements about being dumped on ones head, I see fit to say this, simply because being dumped on ones head isnt much different in terms of outcome to having ones head hit hard. It just comes accross more, whats the word, visceral. Like a Nightstick and a Baseball Bat. The Baseball Bat tends to look more malign, even if the Nightstick is more wieldly for that purpose. Both ways will seriously harm someone, much like how both Weapons will. But People tend to perceive them as though they were totally different subject matters, when theyre both just different means to the same end: Blunt Forced Trauma.
 

andyjeffries

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So do you guys get annoyed that Michael Bisping is always in the main event or is that awesome?

Personally I'd rather see some of the other big names, but it doesn't annoy me. I quite like him (he's a typical brit, in to winding people up). Neither is it awesome though (although watching Dan Hardy at UFC 105 was GREAT!)
 

jks9199

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My students might wait several months to start sparring. They'll work with partners and do other drills -- but I'm not having them try to apply tools in a free sparring setting until they actually have a few to use... That approach may not seem acceptable to everyone, but without the time to develop a few tools, all they end up doing is flailing around.
 

Cyriacus

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On the Topic of Sparring, I think Sparring is good from the Get-Go.
But, it cant be full-on Sparring. Getting a Beginner to full-on Spar, especially against another Beginner, will only end in someone getting hurt, or it will be rather pointless.
Even Boxers learn the Basics before they Spar. And they Spar pretty early on. Most times Days after joining, sometimes Weeks. I hear some Gyms make it Months.

Slow, Light Sparring so they can practice combinations and striking methods against a Non-Compliant Foe, I believe will give them a better baseline for Ranging, Mindset, and Idealogy later on. It lets them practice things that you just cant practice on a pad or bag, and lets them 'see' what they are learning. Technique should also be focused on for this. Being put up with someone much better who can Teach them things in the process works best.

Then when they start getting decent in a few months time (Or weeks, or days, depending on the intent of the Sparring and whatnot. This is a very complex subject. Im just saying Months for optimal effect. Where I am, its Weeks. But it works in pretty well. Ill edit in a Link at the end of some KKW WTF Lower Belts Sparring decently for their levels, leading to the conclusion of how things are taught being a factor), then the Transition to full-on Sparring isnt as immediate. All thats changed is the Speed, Power, and a bit of the Technique goes out of it.

 
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frank raud

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Being dumped on ones Head is not fun.
Blunt Forced Trauma Injuries arent a sponge bath by Pixies either.

I wasnt contradicting You - Im more saying as an expansion, that being slammed into Concrete is not fun, and nor is Blunt Forced Trauma. That thing that happens when Youre struck by something hard with a decent level of force. Like someones Fist. Being dumped on Your Head after being put into a controlled position, then taken down/thrown is akin to being put into a controlled position, then having a decent shot put into the side of your skull. And even if the Punch is untrained, and delivers little Power, Your Head hitting the same Concrete as You go down? Not much different.

The Reason I add this expansion whenever I see statements about being dumped on ones head, I see fit to say this, simply because being dumped on ones head isnt much different in terms of outcome to having ones head hit hard. It just comes accross more, whats the word, visceral. Like a Nightstick and a Baseball Bat. The Baseball Bat tends to look more malign, even if the Nightstick is more wieldly for that purpose. Both ways will seriously harm someone, much like how both Weapons will. But People tend to perceive them as though they were totally different subject matters, when theyre both just different means to the same end: Blunt Forced Trauma.

You believe that being thrown on your head onto concrete is equivalent to be punched in the head? Study physics much?
 

Cyriacus

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You believe that being thrown on your head onto concrete is equivalent to be punched in the head? Study physics much?
At no point did I say that.
I am saying, that both can injure You quite badly.
And since We freely assume one can just walk over and headslam someone, it isnt exactly a leap into the abyss to be able to boot their skull after putting them into a position from which to do so, much like how you put someone into a position from which to throw/takedown them.

If it makes some folks feel any better, Ive learnt both Methods. Both work.
Thats My point. Both will inflict Blunt Forced Trauma Injuries. But because one of them is dumping someone on their Head, People visualise that more graphically than being Struck. When both are inflicting Injury.
Im sure plenty of folks here have had a Rib smacked in or broken in one hit. Perhaps not the first hit, but the first hit to that Rib.
But apparently if someone is thrown onto concrete and it breaks a Rib, it is visualised more graphically.

Perhaps You should read the part where I said "I am not contradicting You"

EDIT: Oh, I see. You saw where I said it wasnt much different, and numbed the whole thing down to that.
I meant, both are inflicting Blunt Forced Trauma, and both can seriously harm You in one swift move, if not permenantly harm You. It needs to be read in Context. My whole point wasnt about that, but rather about how People tend to more graphically think of Head-Dumping as compared to Power Striking.
 
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frank raud

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At no point did I say that.
I am saying, that both can injure You quite badly.
And since We freely assume one can just walk over and headslam someone, it isnt exactly a leap into the abyss to be able to boot their skull after putting them into a position from which to do so, much like how you put someone into a position from which to throw/takedown them.

If it makes some folks feel any better, Ive learnt both Methods. Both work.
Thats My point. Both will inflict Blunt Forced Trauma Injuries. But because one of them is dumping someone on their Head, People visualise that more graphically than being Struck. When both are inflicting Injury.
Im sure plenty of folks here have had a Rib smacked in or broken in one hit. Perhaps not the first hit, but the first hit to that Rib.
But apparently if someone is thrown onto concrete and it breaks a Rib, it is visualised more graphically.

Perhaps You should read the part where I said "I am not contradicting You"

EDIT: Oh, I see. You saw where I said it wasnt much different, and numbed the whole thing down to that.
I meant, both are inflicting Blunt Forced Trauma, and both can seriously harm You in one swift move, if not permenantly harm You. It needs to be read in Context. My whole point wasnt about that, but rather about how People tend to more graphically think of Head-Dumping as compared to Power Striking.

IF someone is literally dumped on their head, there is a large mass coming behind it,namely their body. Figure another 150-200 lbs in motion rapidly decelerating with a hinge(the neck) between what first hit the ground and the mass of the body. A punch can do major damage to the head,but rarely breaks a neck. Landing head first can do as much(probably more) damage to the head, with the very real possibility of a neck break. Might be the reason many sports(or martial arts in competition) allow you to hit the head with fists,elbows or knees(depending on rules),but no sport allows you to dump someone on their head.
 

Tez3

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So do you guys get annoyed that Michael Bisping is always in the main event or is that awesome?

Not sure what you mean, the majority of proper MMA fans aren't so impressed with UFC here, it's mostly the armchair fans that go, sorry Andy! UFC is far too expensive, the average ticket price for shows here is £20-30 whereas the UFC is probably triple that. We don't much like Bisping either, we support him only when he's fighting 'foreigners' because he's a Brit. He's fought on our promotion twice, the first time being his pro debut fight. We much prefer Uk shows like BAMMA and Cagewarriors as well as the smaller regional ones. Dan Hardy is okay, we have some tremendous fighters though who can't afford to become fulltime but still fight pro rules, that's where the gold is.
 

Cyriacus

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IF someone is literally dumped on their head, there is a large mass coming behind it,namely their body. Figure another 150-200 lbs in motion rapidly decelerating with a hinge(the neck) between what first hit the ground and the mass of the body. A punch can do major damage to the head,but rarely breaks a neck. Landing head first can do as much(probably more) damage to the head, with the very real possibility of a neck break. Might be the reason many sports(or martial arts in competition) allow you to hit the head with fists,elbows or knees(depending on rules),but no sport allows you to dump someone on their head.
Yes, which inflicts Blunt Forced Trauma to their Head.
This is My point. I am NOT debating which causes more Damage, I am attempting to discuss that they both inflict the same, lets Rephrase to, Archetype of Injury, but that People tend to be more, lets rephrase to, Alarmed by, being dumped on their Heads when both are able to inflict a great deal of Injuring Damage.

Re-Read My Original Reply with this in Mind, Good Sir.
 

Earl Weiss

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Because they have little or no experience with true taekwondo. Taekwondo is effective in MMA or UFC fighting. I have students who are very successful in MMA using taekwondo as their bread and butter stand up game. Using taekwondo, we take away punches, they don't like getting full force kicked in the leg or dropped with a back kick on their shoot. So they try to take a leg kick and then shoot, we use footwork to escape, or if not, the game goes to the ground and you do something else. That's why it is called mixed martial arts, because you use different arts at different ranges. Saying taekwondo isn't effective in MMA is like saying boxing is ineffective.

I think your point is well taken, but the OP needs to understand that the question as he posted seems to limit things to "If you only do what you learn in TKD (or boxing for that matter) COMPETITION, then you will not be effective in MMA."

Similarly we see many great MMA guys with strong wrestling backgrounds. However, if they only relied on wrestling skills, they would be in a heap of trouble in MMA.

So, while you can build on a particular core, that cannot be relied on exclusively.
 

Tez3

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I think your point is well taken, but the OP needs to understand that the question as he posted seems to limit things to "If you only do what you learn in TKD (or boxing for that matter) COMPETITION, then you will not be effective in MMA."

Similarly we see many great MMA guys with strong wrestling backgrounds. However, if they only relied on wrestling skills, they would be in a heap of trouble in MMA.

So, while you can build on a particular core, that cannot be relied on exclusively.

The 'art' of and MMA fighter is in being able to meld together the techniques needed for an MMA fight from the other martial arts. It's actually quite simple in theory, difficult in practice but effective in fighting once mastered.
 

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