Non-martial training in martial arts

[jobo]

Doing various exercises due to being late for an MA class isn’t strictly punishment in every dojo. Depending on how late a student is to our class, he/she may have to do more exercises before they’re allowed on the floor. Why? As a warmup. If you walk in and everyone is in the middle of doing 100 roundhouse kicks during basics, you shouldn’t just jump right into it. That would be a great way to pull something. My CI in that instance will have the student do some pushups, jumping jacks, etc. then stretch a bit on their own before lining up. Punishment or not is in the eye of the beholder.

Nothing cultish about making someone warm up adequately before joining the physical activity.

and if that's the same warm up as every one else. Did, that its not and won't be considered a punishments

 

[jobo]

Negative attitude for minor punishment (that would help me in the long run) just wouldn't enter my mind. I guess I am just wired different.

Of course, I never knew any place that used that option without it being explained to students when they signed up, not something we have clarified yet. If I knew the rules were I would have to do a certain amount of pushups, or squat thrusts if I were late, so be it. Even if it were explained to me just as I arrived late, I would just do it and resolve to ensure I wasn't late any more.

but that has no logic , if say , doing 20 additional push ups, helps you, as a late comer, then 20 addition push ups will help all the students who turned up on time as well. There is no reason to treat the late comer differently, unless it it to use him as an example to ensure the " correct behaviour from him and others in the future

 

[jobo]

Negative attitude for minor punishment (that would help me in the long run) just wouldn't enter my mind. I guess I am just wired different.

Of course, I never knew any place that used that option without it being explained to students when they signed up, not something we have clarified yet. If I knew the rules were I would have to do a certain amount of pushups, or squat thrusts if I were late, so be it. Even if it were explained to me just as I arrived late, I would just do it and resolve to ensure I wasn't late any more.

if someone is paying me to be there then that might be ok, though when they tried that at work, i retaliated by screwing the foremans favour cup to his desk

if I'm paying THEM, then they are the employee, I'm not going to be punished by the hired help, any more than i would let my Gardner punish me for having to many weeds

 

[JR 137]

if someone is paying me to be there then that might be ok, though when they tried that at work, i retaliated by screwing the foremans favour cup to his desk

if I'm paying THEM, then they are the employee, I'm not going to be punished by the hired help, any more than i would let my Gardner punish me for having to many weeds

Completely different things here. The gardener takes care of your garden and only your garden (while he’s at your garden). The MA teacher teaches several people at the same time. One person showing up late disrupts everyone there. I’m a school teacher and it’s the same thing - a student walks in after I’ve begun, and everyone gets disrupted, even if they quietly walk in without saying a word. There’s obviously degrees of the disruption, but it’s still a disruption that effects everyone else and not just the late student.

 

[JR 137]

and if that's the same warm up as every one else. Did, that its not and won't be considered a punishments

It’s not the same warmup as everyone else did. If they did every single thing the rest of the class did, they’d never catch up. It’s a condensed warmup to strike the balance of being warm enough and getting in as quickly as possible.

There’s a couple that comes to class 10 minutes late every Tuesday night due to their work and childcare schedule. The teacher knows this and finds it acceptable. It’s better to take 80 minutes of a 90 minute class than miss the whole thing. They do the required pushups, squats, stretches, etc. as a warmup, not as punishment. Their warmup on Tuesdays is more intense, but not harder when all things are considered.

And if it is used as punishment and/or a deterrent, it’s usually stated up front when the student first joins. If they don’t like the policy, they can find another place. Same with all of these policies you seem to take issue with. That’s not a cult. It’s “this is what we do and how we do it. If it fits your idea of the right way, welcome aboard. If not, all the best to you.” An entire school or any organization shouldn’t change what they do because one person takes issue with it. If that were the case, no place would ever function for very long.

 

[oftheherd1]

but that has no logic , if say , doing 20 additional push ups, helps you, as a late comer, then 20 addition push ups will help all the students who turned up on time as well. There is no reason to treat the late comer differently, unless it it to use him as an example to ensure the " correct behaviour from him and others in the future

And ensuring correct behavior would be wrong?

I have engaged in activities where if one person screwed up, all accepted the same punishment. Granted, that was usually to encourage others to help the person being punished through group activities, such as giving him out of class instruction, or additional unpleasantness. But that was to encourage a different dynamic in the group.

 

[oftheherd1]

if someone is paying me to be there then that might be ok, though when they tried that at work, i retaliated by screwing the foremans favour cup to his desk

if I'm paying THEM, then they are the employee, I'm not going to be punished by the hired help, any more than i would let my Gardner punish me for having to many weeds

What was your foreman's reaction? Did he get a big laugh out of it and you two become best of friends?

As to paying a teacher, that may be, but usually part of that is the teacher gets to set the rules you are to obey or that teacher gets to decline to teach you.

 

[jobo]

What was your foreman's reaction? Did he get a big laugh out of it and you two become best of friends?

As to paying a teacher, that may be, but usually part of that is the teacher gets to set the rules you are to obey or that teacher gets to decline to teach you.

no it was the star of a war that lasted for months,it only finished when he couldn't take the worry of which of his belongings would be screwed to the desk or disappear next and took early retirement every one else thought it was funny when i took the door off his office and he had to go and find it

 

[jobo]

It’s not the same warmup as everyone else did. If they did every single thing the rest of the class did, they’d never catch up. It’s a condensed warmup to strike the balance of being warm enough and getting in as quickly as possible.

There’s a couple that comes to class 10 minutes late every Tuesday night due to their work and childcare schedule. The teacher knows this and finds it acceptable. It’s better to take 80 minutes of a 90 minute class than miss the whole thing. They do the required pushups, squats, stretches, etc. as a warmup, not as punishment. Their warmup on Tuesdays is more intense, but not harder when all things are considered.

And if it is used as punishment and/or a deterrent, it’s usually stated up front when the student first joins. If they don’t like the policy, they can find another place. Same with all of these policies you seem to take issue with. That’s not a cult. It’s “this is what we do and how we do it. If it fits your idea of the right way, welcome aboard. If not, all the best to you.” An entire school or any organization shouldn’t change what they do because one person takes issue with it. If that were the case, no place would ever function for very long.

having policies or rules doesn't stop it being a cult, in fact cults are big on " policies"

in a matter of fact, that if you are paying someone and they punish you for breaking their rules, then you are a cult member, i cant think of any other situation were a,customer would be punished for being late, can you?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

see above, its not benifocal f it puts them off the notion than exercise. Is a fun activerty done for fun.

they should reward them with press ups for good behaviour, and exclude them for bad

As I said, that part is valid. Using push-ups as reward wouldn't work, either, though rewarding them for doing push-ups probably would.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but participating in sport, IS a societal norm, so the culture of sports teams that behave much the same as each other is normal by the stabdards of that society

Participating in MA has become nearly as normal as sports. People aren't usually surprised to find someone they know is involved in MA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

ma is a normal, as its seems its the only sport that inflicts behaviours from a different country and a different century, that is nit normal in sport

nb that should say abnormal, i can't edit at the moment

Many of the rules in sports are grounded in something from some other culture. If someone plays cricket in the US (far more rare than MA), are they suddenly part of a cult?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

if someone is paying me to be there then that might be ok, though when they tried that at work, i retaliated by screwing the foremans favour cup to his desk

if I'm paying THEM, then they are the employee, I'm not going to be punished by the hired help, any more than i would let my Gardner punish me for having to many weeds

You seem to miss the actual point of the punishment (which you correctly labeled it). MA isn't all about fighting. Most instructors (probably especially those teaching kids) want to help develop good live lessons and practices. Being on time is one of those habits that helps out in most situations, and is also good for the MA class (both for the individual and for those training with them). Most folks will hurry up a bit more to avoid having to do 20 push-ups.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no it was the star of a war that lasted for months,it only finished when he couldn't take the worry of which of his belongings would be screwed to the desk or disappear next and took early retirement every one else thought it was funny when i took the door off his office and he had to go and find it

All sounds pretty childish. Would've been much easier (and more productive) to be cooperative.

 

[JR 137]

having policies or rules doesn't stop it being a cult, in fact cults are big on " policies"

in a matter of fact, that if you are paying someone and they punish you for breaking their rules, then you are a cult member, i cant think of any other situation were a,customer would be punished for being late, can you?

I can. How about a doctor making you reschedule your appointment if you’re not there within a reasonable time. How about a restaurant canceling your reservation if you’re not on time. How about an airline giving away your seat and charging you a fee to re-book if you miss your flight.

I could keep going, but I think you get the gist of it. I’ll most likely get a “bit that’s different, they’re not making you do pushups.” My preemptive response - if you’re penalized, it’s punishment. And you’re a paying customer. Just like the dojo or any other “cult” you proclaim, if you don’t agree with the policy, you go elsewhere.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can. How about a doctor making you reschedule your appointment if you’re not there within a reasonable time. How about a restaurant canceling your reservation if you’re not on time. How about an airline giving away your seat and charging you a fee to re-book if you miss your flight.

I could keep going, but I think you get the gist of it. I’ll most likely get a “bit that’s different, they’re not making you do pushups.” My preemptive response - if you’re penalized, it’s punishment. And you’re a paying customer. Just like the dojo or any other “cult” you proclaim, if you don’t agree with the policy, you go elsewhere.

Good examples.

And as for the "that's different", most kids play on sports teams they (or their parents) pay for them to play on. And physical exercise as punishment has long been a go-to correction for inattention, tardiness, etc. in that environment.

 

[jobo]

I can. How about a doctor making you reschedule your appointment if you’re not there within a reasonable time. How about a restaurant canceling your reservation if you’re not on time. How about an airline giving away your seat and charging you a fee to re-book if you miss your flight.

I could keep going, but I think you get the gist of it. I’ll most likely get a “bit that’s different, they’re not making you do pushups.” My preemptive response - if you’re penalized, it’s punishment. And you’re a paying customer. Just like the dojo or any other “cult” you proclaim, if you don’t agree with the policy, you go elsewhere.

that's not like with like, if the instructor said, sorry come back next week or don't come at all, then it would be similar,or if the airline said we will let you on if you unblock the toilets, that's similar. Cancelling a contract through frustration is not the same as extracting physical punishment

 

[oftheherd1]

no it was the star of a war that lasted for months,it only finished when he couldn't take the worry of which of his belongings would be screwed to the desk or disappear next and took early retirement every one else thought it was funny when i took the door off his office and he had to go and find it

Sounds like bullying to me.

Did he know it was you or did you make sure he never knew who was doing it?

 

[jobo]

Good examples.

And as for the "that's different", most kids play on sports teams they (or their parents) pay for them to play on. And physical exercise as punishment has long been a go-to correction for inattention, tardiness, etc. in that environment.

in past decades maybe,but its a) counter productive as above and b) would be considered as bullying in the century. Arguing that people used to do bad things to children in the past doesn't really support your point to well

 

[jobo]

Sounds like bullying to me.

Did he know it was you or did you make sure he never knew who was doing it?

he knew it was me, he couldn't catch me doing it,
he starts bullying me by taking a quarter hours pay of me if i was one minute late, or more commonly an hours pay if i was half an hour late. As nobody did anything at all for the first hour, this was just a petty vindictive rule that was of no benefit to the company, further it removed my good will to stay late with out pay if required, so it harmed the company.

he was universal llu unpopular even his boss hated him, which is how i got away with so much, when he left, ll got back o normal, i tuned up when i felt like it, and did all the work that the others wouldn't do as it was difficult/ dirty. An was the new foremans and blue eyed boy, so much so that the other wouldn't talk to me
I'm trying to remember which was the best trick,???? When i cut one of the selves of his coat or when i put engine oil in his boots , there are so many