No touch knockout...

[CNida]

Lately I have been considering trying to pick up some lessons in Systema, but I watched a video on youtube recently showing a demonstration where they practice something like the no touch knockout.

I am immediately skeptical about any art that practices such a thing, but before I sounded off I wanted to hear some input.

Is there even some small possibility that these "techniques" actually work? Or is it just showmanship?


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[ballen0351]

Got a link to the video? Ive got an appointment to check out a systema school after the new year that's a little concerning to me

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is there even some small possibility that these "techniques" actually work? Or is it just showmanship?

If you run toward me with full speed, I pull out a Colt 45, point at your chest, and it stops your forward running, will you call that "no touch ..."?

When there is a no touch knockout "sender", there must be a no touch knockout "receiver". In the above example, if you just close your eyes, my no touch knockout won't work on you because you are no longer a proper receiver.

 

[ballen0351]

If you run toward me with full speed, I pull out a Colt 45, point at your chest, and it stops your forward running, will you call that "no touch ..."?

When there is a no touch knockout "sender", there must be a no touch knockout "receiver". In the above example, if you just close your eyes, my no touch knockout won't work on you because you are no longer a proper receiver.

That's not a knockout that's an oh crap

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Let me first say that I really like Systema and the people I have had a chance to work with were great.

As to my feelings on "no touch Knockouts or throws" have a read over at my blog:

http://brianvancise.com/2013/12/18/okay-fo-fo-crap-is-just-that-crap/

 

[K-man]

Got a link to the video? Ive got an appointment to check out a systema school after the new year that's a little concerning to me

Not that it's no touch KO but it is similar, and one that I would question. Is it just taking ukemi? I haven't seen Mikhail in person, just his tapes so I don't know.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tEZAVujeLN0

And one from the guy who has taught me that demonstrates principles.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IgWvKzeRl4A&desktop_uri=/watch?v=IgWvKzeRl4A

:asian:

 

[jks9199]

Got a link to the video? Ive got an appointment to check out a systema school after the new year that's a little concerning to me

I haven't seen a no-touch KO in Systema. I have seen some things I'm doubtful of, or that I think work primarily by cooperation. I have seen some no-touch knockdowns that are essentially examples of letting some miss with a committed attack that overbalances them. And, without being disrespectful, I do sometimes see some Systema programs going down a little bit of a cult route, including some psychological paths that I find concerning. That said -- I've seen some really good, really skilled Systema folks. And they're certainly not the only ones I've seen going down those cultish paths!

 

[ballen0351]

I haven't seen a no-touch KO in Systema. I have seen some things I'm doubtful of, or that I think work primarily by cooperation. I have seen some no-touch knockdowns that are essentially examples of letting some miss with a committed attack that overbalances them. And, without being disrespectful, I do sometimes see some Systema programs going down a little bit of a cult route, including some psychological paths that I find concerning. That said -- I've seen some really good, really skilled Systema folks. And they're certainly not the only ones I've seen going down those cultish paths!

Im Actually heading down your way to the class. Well DC so not all the way down your way but Im going to check it out.

 

[K-man]

Is there even some small possibility that these "techniques" actually work? Or is it just showmanship?

I have seen and felt some incredible things in MA including things that I do not fully understand, but the reality is very few of those things are transmissible to a student in a short space of time. So in the Systema sense could someone do that type of thing? Maybe. Can their students do that type of thing? Not likely. My built in BS sensor goes ballistic when I see something that doesn't make sense within my understanding. That is quite common with YouTube stuff. Without seeing something first hand, I would be sceptical. If the students can't replicate it, at the very least it is impractical.

So perhaps there is a small (as in very small) possibility that something like you describe might work, but sometimes, as jks said, things that are not real can become 'real' in a cult-like sense.
:asian:

 

[SENC-33]

I have never seen anything resembling a no touch knockout in Systema. Are you referring to the videos depicting no touch "falldowns"? You see this in some Systema seminars where people who have been subjected to several strikes will come at the striker time and again where they are manipulated by the fear (memory) of being struck again. This is similar to a "fainting" punch. Some of them do this to simulate the ability to mentally effect and opponent who is overly aggressive and charging you. It's not meant to be taken seriously as a means of self defense technique........

In a nutshell Systema (when trained properly and within common sense context) is meant to teach you to rely on relaxation, breathing properly and free form and instinct instead of focusing on technical "techniques".

 

[CNida]

http://youtu.be/AF2eeaxU5Eg

At the 3:39 mark. And it continues until about the 4:15 mark.

I won't say its outside the realm of possibility but I am incredibly skeptical.

Not sure who the guy is but I see him in plenty of videos.


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[Xue Sheng]

Overall systema is good...going down the no touch knockout road is, to me, just plain whacky.

All the person doing the no touch knockout has successfully done is to teach his students to fall down on que

 

[ballen0351]

That looked like a demo/theater show. Im not sure that was an accurate representation of the style and more a flashy fantsy show

 

[CNida]

That looked like a demo/theater show. Im not sure that was an accurate representation of the style and more a flashy fantsy show

I don't think its indicative of the style in general, either, but one has to question why they would put such stuff in a demonstration.

I just hope someone who actually practices Systema can shed some light on that. Maybe there is something I am overlooking or I simply dont know... But if that really is something that you find in Systema then I am not sure it is the art for me.


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[K-man]

http://youtu.be/AF2eeaxU5Eg

At the 3:39 mark. And it continues until about the 4:15 mark.

I won't say its outside the realm of possibility but I am incredibly skeptical.

Not sure who the guy is but I see him in plenty of videos.

I'm with you.
The guy is Vadim Starov and there seems to be some controversy around him.
:asian:

 

[CNida]

I'm with you.
The guy is Vadim Starov and there seems to be some controversy around him.
:asian:

Controversy? What do you mean?


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[punisher73]

At first when you mentioned this in relation to Systema, I was thinking of the "no touch" knockdowns I learned in Aikido. Basically as you were off balancing your attacker and they moved into the void you created with their balance, you could make a striking motion towards their face/head and by them trying to dodge the strike would "throw themselves" because they didn't have balance. You didn't actually hit them with the strike, although if they didn't flinch to move out of the way, they would get hit with it and the effect was the same, so not too risky in those regards.

But, watching that video. It was BS that will get people hurt. I know when Systema was first brought over they advertised and sold a couple dvds on "psychic" stuff. Later, they downplayed this aspect and said that it was a mistranslation/application of what the intent was from the Russian words to the English meaning. I also remember reading interviews with Vasiliev etc. that talked about their spetnatz traning and how it was supposed to induce psychic powers in the soldiers. So, who knows what the belief actually is. Was it a misunderstanding of what they were trying to say or was it that everyone started calling bullcrap on the stuff so they downplayed it?

 

[K-man]

Controversy? What do you mean?

There are various styles of Systema, then offshoots. One of the earliest ones is Kadochnikov Systema. It seems Starov was involved with Kadochnikov Systema but had an acrimonious parting resulting in claims and counter claims. Some of these issues were discussed on MT some years back.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/31506-Some-explanations-are-due
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/76888-Starov-vs-Kadochnikov-is-this-going-too-far

As well he has promoted his no contact combat that is different from the Kadochnikov Systema of his roots and most people are not overly impressed with its martial effectiveness.

 

[SENC-33]

If you want to cut through the Systema BS look into Kevin Secours, Val Riazanov and Alex Kostic. There are others who do a good job of presenting this mis-understood system but these 3 are the best IMO. Martin Wheeler is another instructor I consider to be top notch as well......

I have used Systema as a platform to take my striking ability, breathing and movement to another level (This includes a marked improvement in ability to absorb hard strikes). It has also helped me tremendously with clinching techniques, throwing and escape from "likely" self defense scenarios.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

http://youtu.be/AF2eeaxU5Eg

At the 3:39 mark. And it continues until about the 4:15 mark.

I won't say its outside the realm of possibility but I am incredibly skeptical.

Not sure who the guy is but I see him in plenty of videos.


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

What you highlighted there is utter crap and bs! Just calling it like I see it! Like Xue said previously he sure has taught his students to fall down well!