Ninja!

[Elizium]

there is a part of the book of Stphen Hayes the secret art of the ninja, Hayes is saying what Sojobow has said about Koga albeit briefly. But, the koga had ceased. Unless they suddenly spring up and declare their Ryu, then it will be treated as a joke for all time.

 

[heretic888]

Errrrr....

I believe you are referring to "The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art". And, I don't recall anything even remotely similar to what sojobow has claimed being in that book.

 

[Elizium]

Errrrr....

I believe you are referring to "The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art". And, I don't recall anything even remotely similar to what sojobow has claimed being in that book.

That is the right book as you say, I was posting after training and with it being midnight I was brain tired as well as body.

Well on page 25 in the first chapter it starts after a paragraph break:

Historically, ninjutsu was a profession inherited by birth. From infancy, the children of ninja families were conditoned to be constantly aware of things around them. AS they grew up, they were gradually educated in the secrets and traditions of the Ryu. At age five or six, their play activities began to take the form of trianing exercises. Games stressing balance and agility were introduced. The children would walk atop narrow horizontal poles, run up inclined planks, and leap over tall shrubs.

That is from the book under the part called Training. If this is correct then who is wrong, or are we all correct and the book is wrong. I am only going by the fact of the book alone. Not that I am condemning the people that have posted in this thread as wrong or as 100% correct, I am just stating the fact of the book and to settle (not inflame) the thread and sonjobow claim.

 

[Don Roley]

Elizium,

What is making us chuckle is Sojobow's comments about the differences between the Iga and Koga that he is claiming existed.

Your quote is accurate, but not related to the subject.

 

[Elizium]

Elizium,

What is making us chuckle is Sojobow's comments about the differences between the Iga and Koga that he is claiming existed.

Your quote is accurate, but not related to the subject.

Mr. Roley, as you have my respect from the other BB e-budo, along with Mr. Severe, can you explain the relation to my quote from the book and that of sojobow so this matter can be laid to rest.:supcool:

thank you

 

[Don Roley]

Elizium,
Take a look at the 19th post in this thread by Sojobow and look at the quote you provided. As you can see, what you wrote does not contradict what he wrote, but the whole thing about how Iga worked in a more Clan type relationship than the Koga, the Koga sometimes went to Yamabushi temples (that is funny if you know the subject matter) and such the Sojobow wrote can not be covered in what you quoted. Nor, it seems, can he provide a source for something he claims if fairly common knowledge.

 

[Elizium]

I will look into this a bit more deeply. I guessed sojobow was talking out of a certian body orafice when he posted, but I will look again.


I like this thread. It proves that some people are willing to help keep the history correct and not go into the pink bunnies with Uzi's realm of fantasy.

P.S. Like the reason for the edit on your post Mr. Roley :ultracool

 

[heretic888]

Ummm..... ok, now I'm confused. :mst:

I still don't remember anything about Iga-den = "clans" and Koga-den = "families" being in Hayes' book.....

 

[Cryozombie]

Ummm..... ok, now I'm confused. :mst:

I still don't remember anything about Iga-den = "clans" and Koga-den = "families" being in Hayes' book.....

me either... can someone point out specifically what book and on what pages??

Thanks!

 

[Don Roley]

Elizium said he would look into it. I think he just got carried along by Sojobow's misdirection and thinks he read it. I owned all of Hayes' early books, and I do not remember it either. But Sojobow tends to sprinkle in a little bit of fact with the hookum he wants us to believe in order to make it sound more convincing.

 

[sojobow]

there is a part of the book of Stphen Hayes the secret art of the ninja, Hayes is saying what Sojobow has said about Koga albeit briefly. But, the koga had ceased. Unless they suddenly spring up and declare their Ryu, then it will be treated as a joke for all time.

This subject you bring up regarding "Declare their Ryu" seems the rule-of-the-day. I've read a number of post in this thread stating that, unless one's Ryu links back to Hatsumi's schools, that Ryu is not legit. Although usually it seems that this statement is made by a Bugi. Also, that Koga "died out" and no longer exists (some say this untimely death took place hundreds of years ago - some say that last of the Koga died in a car accident back in the 60's. In fact, we are hearing that Fuji's entire leadership was in this car so no one could have continued on the Koga side which seem very convenient to Buji marketing.

I have a couple of short questions:

1) If a Koga Ryu or even a Ryu-ha would "suddenly spring up and declare their Ryu," to whom "exactly" would this Koga Ryu have to submit this declaration too?;

2) For what purpose would the Koga Ryu make this declaration?;

3) To whom would this Ryu"be treated as a joke for all time" too (using your term)?;

4) If a Ryu choses not to submit this declaration to whomsoever, what is the sanction?;

5) Do you honestly believe that a system once practiced by more that 1 million individuals was reduced to only enough individuals to be killed in a car (6 seater)? An entire lineage dating (some say dating back to circa 700 AD - some say even prior to 500 BC) back prior to the Clan wars; before the Shogun wars now is only represented by ONE SCHOOL or ONE INDIVIDUAL?;

6) Who presented proof to you, since you seem to believe that all remnants of Tanaka are dead, that Koga Ninjitsu is dead and would you be so kind as to present this proof within this thread? (If you don't have the proof, I'll take your word for it)

7) In hand-to-hand combat, would you want to keep the back of your hands facing towards your opponent and if so, why so?

Thanx. I, for one, will be anxiously awaiting your reply.

 

[Don Roley]

Let me see if I can answer all of this distracting dribble.

1- Everyone who asked. Just like anyone who claims to have come up with a cure for cancer has to prove it to anyone who asks and not blow them off. Potential customers.

2- so as to be taken seriously.

3- everyone.

4- treated as a joke for all time.

5- "Do you think that all the sightings of UFOs over the years are ALL false? So who are you to question the FACT that our cult has been contacted to save the earth by a race of devine extra terrestrials."

6- It is a doctor's responsibility to prove he graduated from a medical school before he practices medicine. NOT anyone else's responsibility to prove he is not.

7- it depends. Looking for a catch all answer in the subject of combat is a sure sign of a lack of knowledge about it.

 

[DuckofDeath]

sojobow,

Do you fancy yourself a part of some lost Koga remnant or something? I recall a particular Frank Dux Forum thread of yours that had a title like "sojobow Koga family" or somesuch.

 

[sojobow]

sojobow,

Do you fancy yourself a part of some lost Koga remnant or something? I recall a particular Frank Dux Forum thread of yours that had a title like "sojobow Koga family" or somesuch.

No. I find the martial art of Koga Yamabushi Ninjitsu and more particularly, Dux's Ryu being inclusive of other/addition war arts and sciences, extremely interesting (and complicated) as well as the subject of History in general (especially History relating to War arts and tactics).

 

[Elizium]

Speaking only as a student with some experience identifiable with the Koga System, I believe that there were 50 "Families." This is an estimate circa the 12th through 14th Centuries. The date (time period) of when the "systems of Ninjitsu" were established can change this estimate from one single family to the estimated 50 Koga Families depending upon how one defines "when established." The Date is in debate.

I am not sure, however, the number of "Clans" of the Iga. There may have been 3 "Clans" during this same time period. You will note the use of the two different terms of "Clans" for the Iga System and "Families" for the Koga System. There is a difference. It will be interesting to see estimates from other schools represented here.

This quote seems to be misleading. The first for me to doubt this is this part of the first sentance: " "I believe that there were 50 "Families." " First off, name them so they can be looked up. Second, to believe is to show evidence as circumspect. This part of the sentance makes a claim without basis of fact. As the paragraph continues : The date (time period) of when the "systems of Ninjitsu" were established can change this estimate from one single family to the estimated 50 Koga Families depending upon how one defines "when established." Most schools can be traced to a certian area in time and location.

I am not sure, however, the number of "Clans" of the Iga. There may have been 3 "Clans" during this same time period. From what I gathered from the books Essence of Ninjutsu and The Ninja and their sectret fighting art there seemed to have been more than 3 "Clans". But this is only from 2 books written by 2 different people.

As for Sojobow's recent claim that if no ryu or school is not linked through history or lineage of teaching then it is not legit... I would say that you are wrong. Ninjutsu came originally from India, through China and were settled in Japan. From India came the fighting or first account of what could be called as ninja. China added to this by Sun Tzu document treatise "The Art of War", then following the religious battles for China, they settled in Japan. This is where Togakure Ryu stems from. Over the years, schools such as Kukishin developed and from there offshoots of other schools began. Even Takagi Yoshin Ryu had to come from somewhere. But as documentation from the medievil period no longer exists and all densho are copied from the original the history is intact. Any misfortune like what Sojobow described as the last, the scrolls will remain and be picked up again as a historical fighting system not as a real traditional /modern system.

these are my thoughts though, as I see this subject of the thread.

 

[Shogun]

I still don't remember anything about Iga-den = "clans" and Koga-den = "families" being in Hayes' book.....

Its cause there wasnt. I am a huge hayes fan. I have read all of his books and own of them. he is a great teacher (and author). what can I say? even if some beleive he is about the money, there comes a time in a Ninja's life when he/she needs retirement funds. maybe thats the Ninja way, huh? lol

 

[heretic888]

Do you honestly believe that a system once practiced by more that 1 million individuals was reduced to only enough individuals to be killed in a car (6 seater)?

A million?? *laughs*

You've got to be joking, right?? I doubt there was even a million people located in that entire region of Japan.

Y'know, sojobow, it might help you a little if you spend less time researching "the ninja" and more time researching general Japanese history, anthropology, and sociology.

 

[Elizium]

2) For what purpose would the Koga Ryu make this declaration?;

Recognition within the world and not be a McDojo like the one you are "training under".

3) To whom would this Ryu"be treated as a joke for all time" too (using your term)?;

Okay lets make this Seaseme Street style of explaining: Big Bird has a system that dates back to the 14th century. Elmo wishes to learn. Big Bird teaches. Elmo becomes a ninja. Big Bird is shot by the grouch from his trash can. Elmo moves to another part of the country and sets up a dojo. Along comes prospective student. Student looks pleased. Asks questions. Answer is "oooh it is a secret, isn't that right Mr Goldfish" Mr. Goldfish thinks "go away, you are a muppet". Prospective student asks questions regading system. No one hears of it. It then becomes dubious. Emo disappears and lives in the mountians talking to birds, trees and his pet rock. Next week we shall learn the letter M &C and the long word Dojo

4) If a Ryu choses not to submit this declaration to whomsoever, what is the sanction?;

There are none. If a Koga system apears the we may wish to look at it and see if it is workable.

5) Do you honestly believe that a system once practiced by more that 1 million individuals was reduced to only enough individuals to be killed in a car (6 seater)? An entire lineage dating (some say dating back to circa 700 AD - some say even prior to 500 BC) back prior to the Clan wars; before the Shogun wars now is only represented by ONE SCHOOL or ONE INDIVIDUAL?;

I will refer you to the answer given by another member

6) Who presented proof to you, since you seem to believe that all remnants of Tanaka are dead, that Koga Ninjitsu is dead and would you be so kind as to present this proof within this thread? (If you don't have the proof, I'll take your word for it)

was Tanaka dead, did not even hear of his illness.

7) In hand-to-hand combat, would you want to keep the back of your hands facing towards your opponent and if so, why so?

Thanx. I, for one, will be anxiously awaiting your reply.

And what would you do?

 

[sojobow]

Do you honestly believe that a system once practiced by more that 1 million individuals was reduced to only enough individuals to be killed in a car (6 seater)?

A million?? *laughs*

Ooooops. Should have make it more clear as I am only estimating a general number of those practicing a system from it's inception up until the car wreck. I am glad that a couple of you are helping the rest of us understand History, Anthropy etc. It helps and is appreciated.

 

[Don Roley]

A million people studying a style even over the period you trying to present is still a silly number.

And if there were more of these people haiding out, there should be some sort of proof. A million people just do not do soemthing without something being written down or other physical evidence.