Nightline story on MMA

[Tez3]

The one thing I really hate is people condemning others out of ignorance. There is no reason why children shouldn't be doing MMA, the techniques taught are no different - in fact they are the same as they learn in any other martial art. In Wado Ryu I learnt just about everything one needs to to fight MMA, including takedowns, elbow and knee strikes, locks and throws. BJJ and MT just added to what I knew. In Wado as with many other martial arts, I also learned, as did the children, many moves banned in MMA competitions. As someone pointed out eye gouging, head butts and many other techniques are routinely taught to children in other styles. Should they be? I don't know but they are and people are condemning MMA for kids on what basis?
Many children are taught MT and fight MT rules. Its common in Thailand for very young children to compete professionally. In the UK I believe there are also children who compete more or less professionally.
Children being taught MMA is gratifying adults egos? How?

 

[GuroJason]

The one thing I really hate is people condemning others out of ignorance. There is no reason why children shouldn't be doing MMA, the techniques taught are no different - in fact they are the same as they learn in any other martial art. In Wado Ryu I learnt just about everything one needs to to fight MMA, including takedowns, elbow and knee strikes, locks and throws. BJJ and MT just added to what I knew. In Wado as with many other martial arts, I also learned, as did the children, many moves banned in MMA competitions. As someone pointed out eye gouging, head butts and many other techniques are routinely taught to children in other styles. Should they be? I don't know but they are and people are condemning MMA for kids on what basis?
Many children are taught MT and fight MT rules. Its common in Thailand for very young children to compete professionally. In the UK I believe there are also children who compete more or less professionally.
Children being taught MMA is gratifying adults egos? How?

I apologize. I didn't mean to sound like I was condemning anyone. I only meant that full contact fighting for elementary school-age kids is probably a bad idea. I fully support teaching the techniques to kids (because, well, I actively do teach the techniques to kids!), but I don't support full contact fighting for kids, especially when it involves techniques that are meant for breaking bones or knocking out opponents. I think that any student needs to be well informed about the risks of full contact fighting, and I don't know if an 8 year old will fully understand those risks. For an adult to force him/her to fight full contact seems to me like cock or dog fighting, but more twisted still because it involves small children.

Note, these are my personal opinions and I don't mean to offend anyone. I'm only saying that in my school we don't make kids try to knock each other out because we don't think it would be fair to the kids, and our students' parents would have us lynched.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Personally I think teaching kid's and teenagers martial arts can be great provided it is age appropriate and they are given a real dose of moral structure with it.

 

[GuroJason]

Personally I think teaching kid's and teenagers martial arts can be great provided it is age appropriate and they are given a real dose of moral structure with it.

Good point. Without moral structure, you may as well call it "bully training."

Also, can an 8 year old get punch drunk if he's ground-and-pounded? I don't think that'd help his grades much.

 

[Tez3]

I actually agree with children not fighting full contact but have never come across it in MMA here at all. There's no competitions in this country for children under 14 to fight MMA, they enter the children's class at grappling, BJJ or no-gi comps but never MMA. The youngest I have seen fighting was 14 and that's amateur rules in junior bouts, no head shots whatsoever. For junior bouts techniques are to be put on without force and the refs will stop before someone taps if necessary to save any joint damage.
I can honestly say I know of no club/team in the UK teaching MMA that has children fighting full contact. I don't know either of any child here who has fought under the age of 14 in MMA though i do know of plenty who fight full contact in MT at an early age.
The children I have also seen fighting full contact have been in karate and TKD.

 

[GuroJason]

I actually agree with children not fighting full contact but have never come across it in MMA here at all. There's no competitions in this country for children under 14 to fight MMA, they enter the children's class at grappling, BJJ or no-gi comps but never MMA. The youngest I have seen fighting was 14 and that's amateur rules in junior bouts, no head shots whatsoever. For junior bouts techniques are to be put on without force and the refs will stop before someone taps if necessary to save any joint damage.
I can honestly say I know of no club/team in the UK teaching MMA that has children fighting full contact. I don't know either of any child here who has fought under the age of 14 in MMA though i do know of plenty who fight full contact in MT at an early age.
The children I have also seen fighting full contact have been in karate and TKD.

Oh. Ok! I'll keep quiet now. I was under the impression that the MMA for kids guys were having the kids fight full contact. My bad! In that case, I don't see how it's any different from any other martial arts training.

I didn't even see the article, so I shouldn't have even commented. I guess I was misled by previous misconceptions...

 

[Tez3]

Oh. Ok! I'll keep quiet now. I was under the impression that the MMA for kids guys were having the kids fight full contact. My bad! In that case, I don't see how it's any different from any other martial arts training.

I didn't even see the article, so I shouldn't have even commented. I guess I was misled by previous misconceptions...

Bear in mind I can only speak for the UK, I don't know what is happening in the States. It's a much much bigger place obviously and knowing everyone in a sport there is impossible lol! Here we all know each other!

 

[GuroJason]

Bear in mind I can only speak for the UK, I don't know what is happening in the States. It's a much much bigger place obviously and knowing everyone in a sport there is impossible lol! Here we all know each other!

I guess I assumed that since the media was making a big stink about it, then the coaches were making the kids fight full contact. Had I read all the posts in this thread before putting in my 2 cents, I'd have seen that that's not the case. Unless, of course, like you said, it's different in the US than in the UK...

I hope not. Maybe I should go and read the article afterall.

 

[Tez3]

I wouldn't think the US is any differnet from here to be honest, there's no percentage even for the unscrupulous to promote full rules MMA for kids, no one wants to see it. The attraction has always been the adults doing it.

 

[Steve]

LOL! It wasn't an attack on mma coaches, it's about using children to fulfill our own purposes.

Hehe. No, sorry. The humor didn't come through. I need to use more of the smiley faces, I think. It was funny that I just got done talking about how the marketing of MMA will continue to result in poor public perception (and other odd alliterations) and you posted that kids don't belong in MMA, and that the adults were irresponsible troglodytes.

Tez3, I don't think it's any different here. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't kids in both the UK and here who fight full contact, but these aren't sanctioned events and don't represent the sport.

Now, all of that said, I have a question. What do you guys think of the literally thousands of kids in Thailand who fight full contact as early as 6 or 7, often having fought in 30 or 40 professional fights by age 14? Does anyone have any stats about long term damage or injury to these kids?

 

[bowser666]

As long as it is being taught hand in hand with morality. Not just a big giant testosterone fest. It reminds me of what moronic Back yard wrestling teens would have done in their videos if they had MMA training. Probably going to see backyard cage fights and teens getting all kinds of hurt. Just beacuse its available doesnt mean they should do it. That goes for any type of fighting.

 

[Andrew Green]

As long as it is being taught hand in hand with morality. Not just a big giant testosterone fest. It reminds me of what moronic Back yard wrestling teens would have done in their videos if they had MMA training. Probably going to see backyard cage fights and teens getting all kinds of hurt. Just beacuse its available doesnt mean they should do it. That goes for any type of fighting.

You can't train MMA without good sportsmanship, people would constantly be getting injured. Doesn't matter if you are working with kids or adults.

As for the video, I bet someone could easily put together a similar piece on other sports, like hockey or football. Show some kids taking some nasty hits, show the pros taking some really nasty hits, and for someone that didn't know anything about youth sports, or how those sports looked when viewed at lower levels, or even in their entirety and not just a highlight real of the nasty looking bits, it could be just as convincing that anyone that would allow kids to do such a thing should not be allowed near kids.

 

[Makalakumu]

I'd be very wary of taking my children to a MMA gym to train. I don't know if they have the structure or the curriculum to deal with the various developmental stages that children go through.

I have no problems with judo or certain forms of karate, however. They have been taught to children for a long time...and in the case of certain forms of karate, were actually invented for children to practice.

With that said, always ask. Don't assume anything. Go with your gut and always consider safety. Some traditional dojos aren't all they are cracked up to be.

 

[Tez3]

As long as it is being taught hand in hand with morality. Not just a big giant testosterone fest. It reminds me of what moronic Back yard wrestling teens would have done in their videos if they had MMA training. Probably going to see backyard cage fights and teens getting all kinds of hurt. Just beacuse its available doesnt mean they should do it. That goes for any type of fighting.

You do realise females do MMA don't you?
I imagine that if the backyard wrestling teens had learnt MMA they wouldn't be doing anything in their backyards other than gardening, I imagine too if they'd had wrestling training it would be the same. It's the ones who don't train anything that cause the problems.
MMA has the advantage of appealling to young people who want to 'prove' themselves, it gives them a chance to do that safely without being in a gang or hanging around the streets getting into criminal trouble.
Young men especailly though many young women too want some sort of rite of passage to prove themselves, todays society doesn't provide that release for the hormones of young people. Many martial arts don't provide this either for many reasons, many honourable before anyone thinks I'm having a go at TMAs.
MMA people are good sportsmen and women, all the aggression is purely in the ring/cage, it teaches self discpline and control. Morality? that depends on what you think a martial art should be teaching, however MMA teaches you to play fair and what the Aussies say...giving a bloke a fair go.
As Andrew said many sports have things happening that shouldn't, one comes to mind is gymnastics, another is wrestling, college I believe where several students died. I watched a programme recently on childrens beauty pageants and that really did shock me, sheer bliss for peadophiles watching I imagine.

 

[Andrew Green]

I'd be very wary of taking my children to a MMA gym to train. I don't know if they have the structure or the curriculum to deal with the various developmental stages that children go through.

I have no problems with judo or certain forms of karate, however. They have been taught to children for a long time...and in the case of certain forms of karate, were actually invented for children to practice.

With that said, always ask. Don't assume anything. Go with your gut and always consider safety. Some traditional dojos aren't all they are cracked up to be.

This really has nothing at all to do with what "style" is being taught. But more about what the person running the classes knows about coaching.

I'm sure there are some bad MMA coaches that should not be coaching kids. I'm also sure that there are also some really bad "Sensei", "Shifu", "Guru" and any other funky foreign words

But here is one thing to consider, most MMA instructors consider themselves "coaches", which means that when we go around looking for better ways to teach we are looking at coaching materials. Many traditional instructors (not all) consider themselves a"above that" and teach as if they have watched too many kung fu movies, with practices bordering abusive. Granted those instructors are not as prevelant as they once where, but a lot of the traditional styles came back with soldiers, who taught like drill sargents.

I would suspect any MMA coach that teaches kids would have spent some time going through material on youth sports, wrestling, etc.

So to say that MMA coaches are less suited for teaching kids I think is a missunderstanding. Especially in North America where wrestling, one of the key pieces in MMA and IMO the one that should get the most focus with kids, has a long history with youth and is offered in many schools because it is so well suited for kids.

 

[Steve]

This really has nothing at all to do with what "style" is being taught. But more about what the person running the classes knows about coaching.

I'm sure there are some bad MMA coaches that should not be coaching kids. I'm also sure that there are also some really bad "Sensei", "Shifu", "Guru" and any other funky foreign words

But here is one thing to consider, most MMA instructors consider themselves "coaches", which means that when we go around looking for better ways to teach we are looking at coaching materials. Many traditional instructors (not all) consider themselves a"above that" and teach as if they have watched too many kung fu movies, with practices bordering abusive. Granted those instructors are not as prevelant as they once where, but a lot of the traditional styles came back with soldiers, who taught like drill sargents.

I would suspect any MMA coach that teaches kids would have spent some time going through material on youth sports, wrestling, etc.

So to say that MMA coaches are less suited for teaching kids I think is a missunderstanding. Especially in North America where wrestling, one of the key pieces in MMA and IMO the one that should get the most focus with kids, has a long history with youth and is offered in many schools because it is so well suited for kids.

Terrific post.

 

[Brian S]

This really has nothing at all to do with what "style" is being taught. But more about what the person running the classes knows about coaching.

I'm sure there are some bad MMA coaches that should not be coaching kids. I'm also sure that there are also some really bad "Sensei", "Shifu", "Guru" and any other funky foreign words

But here is one thing to consider, most MMA instructors consider themselves "coaches", which means that when we go around looking for better ways to teach we are looking at coaching materials. Many traditional instructors (not all) consider themselves a"above that" and teach as if they have watched too many kung fu movies, with practices bordering abusive. Granted those instructors are not as prevelant as they once where, but a lot of the traditional styles came back with soldiers, who taught like drill sargents.

I would suspect any MMA coach that teaches kids would have spent some time going through material on youth sports, wrestling, etc.

So to say that MMA coaches are less suited for teaching kids I think is a missunderstanding. Especially in North America where wrestling, one of the key pieces in MMA and IMO the one that should get the most focus with kids, has a long history with youth and is offered in many schools because it is so well suited for kids.

Very True, you have changed my mind a bit! :ultracool

 

[bowser666]

You do realise females do MMA don't you?
I imagine that if the backyard wrestling teens had learnt MMA they wouldn't be doing anything in their backyards other than gardening, I imagine too if they'd had wrestling training it would be the same. It's the ones who don't train anything that cause the problems.
MMA has the advantage of appealling to young people who want to 'prove' themselves, it gives them a chance to do that safely without being in a gang or hanging around the streets getting into criminal trouble.
Young men especailly though many young women too want some sort of rite of passage to prove themselves, todays society doesn't provide that release for the hormones of young people. Many martial arts don't provide this either for many reasons, many honourable before anyone thinks I'm having a go at TMAs.
MMA people are good sportsmen and women, all the aggression is purely in the ring/cage, it teaches self discpline and control. Morality? that depends on what you think a martial art should be teaching, however MMA teaches you to play fair and what the Aussies say...giving a bloke a fair go.
As Andrew said many sports have things happening that shouldn't, one comes to mind is gymnastics, another is wrestling, college I believe where several students died. I watched a programme recently on childrens beauty pageants and that really did shock me, sheer bliss for peadophiles watching I imagine.

I agree with alot of what you are saying except the bold items. MA is meant as a way to improve , not prove, ones self. It is meant to be a journey of self discovery. Not to show other people that I am better than you , I beat, you , I made you tap out. I personally coudl care less who won. Competition breeds ego, and ego is the cause of at least half of the problems in this world. When people start getting over themselves and seek to improve upon themselves and then in turn use that to help imrpove others , then maybe things will start to go right.

 

[Tez3]

I agree with alot of what you are saying except the bold items. MA is meant as a way to improve , not prove, ones self. It is meant to be a journey of self discovery. Not to show other people that I am better than you , I beat, you , I made you tap out. I personally coudl care less who won. Competition breeds ego, and ego is the cause of at least half of the problems in this world. When people start getting over themselves and seek to improve upon themselves and then in turn use that to help imrpove others , then maybe things will start to go right.

If that's how you think we are there will be little point in trying to explain to you. We don't go around saying oh we beat you we made you tap out, far from it. MMA is very much your voyage of self discovery, finding that courage within yourself to get into the cage/ring, knowing you have self control, being able to be a good sportperson. the competition if you like is you against yourself, MMA is physical chess, you aren't so much trying to hurt your opponent but to outwit him.
After a fight you will usually find the fighters in a couple of places, in the bar having a drink with their opponents or in the changing rooms/corridor or any place they can find with their oppoents showing each other how they did their techniques. Many a fighter has learned moves literally from his opponent after their fight. There is very little ego in fighters, what you will find is self confidence often but few I know have big egos. I do know one or two who are egotistical but thats not because of MMA, they are like that anyway. One I know was when he was bodybuilding long before he becam.e an MMA fighter.
I am fed up to the back teeth with people deriding MMA because they have seen a few fights in the box, think all MMAers are Kimbo Slicelike and all competitions are the UFC. I'm fed up of repeating myself over and over again asking people to be fair and not judge us by what they think they know. I am tired of people saying all MMAers are the same, that MMA is not as good as TMA, that MMAers are ignorant and full of ego. I'm sick to death of being preached at by the bloody self righteous.
Marital arts is what you want it to be, you'll get out of it what you want. people do go into martial arts to prove themselves, why have belts and gradings if you don't want to prove something? Whats wrong with that anyway, it's sanctimonious to say oh MA is meant to have lofty ideals and be a way of life for people, get real, it is what it is, many things to many people.

 

[bowser666]

If that's how you think we are there will be little point in trying to explain to you. We don't go around saying oh we beat you we made you tap out, far from it. MMA is very much your voyage of self discovery, finding that courage within yourself to get into the cage/ring, knowing you have self control, being able to be a good sportperson. the competition if you like is you against yourself, MMA is physical chess, you aren't so much trying to hurt your opponent but to outwit him.
After a fight you will usually find the fighters in a couple of places, in the bar having a drink with their opponents or in the changing rooms/corridor or any place they can find with their oppoents showing each other how they did their techniques. Many a fighter has learned moves literally from his opponent after their fight. There is very little ego in fighters, what you will find is self confidence often but few I know have big egos. I do know one or two who are egotistical but thats not because of MMA, they are like that anyway. One I know was when he was bodybuilding long before he becam.e an MMA fighter.
I am fed up to the back teeth with people deriding MMA because they have seen a few fights in the box, think all MMAers are Kimbo Slicelike and all competitions are the UFC. I'm fed up of repeating myself over and over again asking people to be fair and not judge us by what they think they know. I am tired of people saying all MMAers are the same, that MMA is not as good as TMA, that MMAers are ignorant and full of ego. I'm sick to death of being preached at by the bloody self righteous.
Marital arts is what you want it to be, you'll get out of it what you want. people do go into martial arts to prove themselves, why have belts and gradings if you don't want to prove something? Whats wrong with that anyway, it's sanctimonious to say oh MA is meant to have lofty ideals and be a way of life for people, get real, it is what it is, many things to many people.

Well I certainly apologize if somehow offended you , but isn't alot of competition ego related ? Especially in the modern day? In IMO thats all competitions are. That was my point. Yes it is prevalent in all MA , but much more in Sport Fighting ( Not just MMA ) because it is competition based. That is all I was saying. I do understand that alot MMA-ists are getting a bad rap for what is aired on TV , but what is aired on TV is fueling the rage for people to train in MMA now, and if it is marketed towards that specific audience you are going to find those "stereotypes" more and more prevalent as they are attracted to that type of Sport.