New York's Sept 11 museum to display hijacker perspective

[5-0 Kenpo]

... not that anyone NEEDS to die (except 100% for sure guilty murderers,child molesters, rapists and terrorists).

Interesting.

And how would you define murder or terrorism? Are not the Iraqis fighting against the U.S. in Iraq Freedom Fighthers, not terrorists. We typically define what the 9/11 hijackers did as murder and terrorism, but they do not. Isn't this a culture based assumption? But yet, you are asking us to take their perspective, ie. culture, into account here.

And, isn't 100% a high standard. If we continue with our system of justice, how could any impartial juror be sure that the evidence presented will be taken 100% in correct context, or that he is given 100% of the information. The only way to be 100% sure is to witness the act for oneself, but then, you would never be on that jury.

Just some food for thought....

 

[Makalakumu]

Maybe we all should take a print copy of this thread to the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington DC and compare...

 

[Archangel M]

The Holocaust Museum isnt in the middle of Auschwitz.

 

[Carol]

The Holocaust Museum isnt in the middle of Auschwitz.

Good point. I don't think the concentration camps do much to show the perspective of the Nazis. In fact the sign at Dachau seems to make the point quite readily:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Dachau_never_again.jpg

 

[MA-Caver]

Interesting.

And how would you define murder or terrorism? Are not the Iraqis fighting against the U.S. in Iraq Freedom Fighthers, not terrorists. We typically define what the 9/11 hijackers did as murder and terrorism, but they do not. Isn't this a culture based assumption? But yet, you are asking us to take their perspective, ie. culture, into account here.

And, isn't 100% a high standard. If we continue with our system of justice, how could any impartial juror be sure that the evidence presented will be taken 100% in correct context, or that he is given 100% of the information. The only way to be 100% sure is to witness the act for oneself, but then, you would never be on that jury.

Just some food for thought....

They found severed heads in Jeffery Dahmler's fridge, and physical evidence of human remains all over his house ... how's THAT for 100%? They found dozens of bodies buried in J.W. Gacy's crawl space and back yard... how's THAT for 100%, etc. etc.
True that a lot of DNA evidence has shown many to be innocent and so on... on those I won't argue (too much). And it's a different topic/thread altogether.

Freedom Fighters... (quoting George Carlin: "If firefighters fight fires and crime fighters fight crime... what do freedom fighters fight? They never mention that part of it do they??"
War and murder are simultaneously murder and not murder by definition. Deaths are involved two men pointing guns at one another with the intent to KILL one another is not murder or not the same murder as a man walking up to someone (usually unarmed) with a gun and killing them is murder.
Yet this was generally defined as execution and not a murder.


What about Mai Lai... was that war, execution or murder?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mai_Lai_Massacre
The My Lai Massacre (Vietnamese: thảm sát Mỹ Lai [mǐˀ lɐːj]; English pronunciation: /ˌmaɪˈleɪ, ˌmaɪˈlaɪ/ ( listen),[1] Vietnamese: [mǐˀlaːj]) was the mass murder conducted by a unit of the U.S. Army on March 16, 1968 of 347 to 504 unarmed citizens in South Vietnam, all of whom were civilians and a majority of whom were women, children, and elderly people.
Many of the victims were sexually abused, beaten, tortured, and some of the bodies were found mutilated.[2] The massacre took place in the hamlets of Mỹ Lai and My Khe of Sơn Mỹ village during the Vietnam War.[3][4] While 26 US soldiers were initially charged with criminal offenses for their actions at My Lai, only William Calley was convicted. He served only three years of an original life sentence, while on house arrest.
When the incident became public knowledge in 1969, it prompted widespread outrage around the world. The massacre also reduced U.S. support at home for the Vietnam War. Three U.S. servicemen who made an effort to halt the massacre and protect the wounded were denounced by U.S. Congressmen, received hate mail, death threats and mutilated animals on their doorsteps.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mai_Lai_Massacre#cite_note-4

(red bold and underlined are mine)

So was this murder? Is this something that should be posted in the papers? Because it was... (related to another thread)... yet this photo and others are part of several memorials and museums I've been to.

So giving the hijackers perspective shouldn't be done IMO... not at a memorial where we gather to remember the fallen.
At a museum yeah show all sides and let the viewer decide for themselves based on their own personal values, morals and character.

Thanks to Mark for giving that defining difference. :asian:

 

[celtic_crippler]

You're missing the point that some of us are trying to make, CC. A memorial is an entirely different thing to a museum.

You have to remember that Curator used to be my profession (it's what my Masters is in) and that for a museum to actually have the right to the name then it has to interpret the evidence and present same in a fashion as unbiased and factual as it can be. If you like, museums function as a 'court of law' or 'peer-review panel' for the past

If people want a memorial and not a museum at the place where the World Trade Centre once stood, I can perfectly understand and agree with that perspective. Indeed, I think until more time has passed that may well be the preferable option. Place the museum that interprets and presents the events elsewhere for now, in a place where people visiting it are not doing so solely for the purposes of grieving or paying their respects.

Am I?

What gave you that idea?

 

[Big Don]

347 to 504 unarmed citizens in South Vietnam, all of whom were civilians and a majority of whom were women, children, and elderly people.

347 to 504? That is as exact a number as they can get? If that is as exact as it gets, we don't have the whole story...

 

[MA-Caver]

347 to 504? That is as exact a number as they can get? If that is as exact as it gets, we don't have the whole story...

True... but concerning THAT war... with so many lies and deceits around it (including the one that started the whole damn thing -- Gulf Of Tonkin Incident) who knows what all happened. Yet the picture tells the story. Or is that a lie as well? Perhaps it was the Vietcong that slaughtered the village and the U.S. troops got the blame?
It could be said that the U.S. government orchestrated the attacks on 9/11 and the 19 Arabs who are known now as the alleged hijackers got the blame?
Where is the truth?
WHAT is the truth?

 

[Makalakumu]

The Holocaust Museum isnt in the middle of Auschwitz.

Actually, they have holocaust museum there, too...

 

[Archangel M]

Suks professional experience aside. I have been to many Civil War Museums and they show relics from the battlefield. Maps. Displays of munitions and equipment. Letters from the soldiers etc. They never really take a political stance for or against the North or the South. They are Battlefied Museums, not "The Civil War Museum".

I have seen photos of the Auschwitz Museum,and I have been to the DC Holocaust Museum. I looks to me that the Auschwitz Museum is a museum about "Auschwitz". They have displays about the camp. Gas Canisters, photographs, clothing, etc. The Holocaust Museum is about the Holocaust.

 

[Makalakumu]

Like I said before, I think one of our MT comrades needs to take a look at this exhibit and let us know what it's all about. Media sensationalism aside leaves us with about nothing in which to form a real opinion. Any volunteers from New York?

 

[Sukerkin]

Very true, Mauna, we are talking about something none of us has seen. It's the very idea of it that offends some people tho, or at least the siting of something other than a memorial where the WTC used to stand.

The plans seem to be for a surface memorial and an underground museum - have I understood that correctly? If it is set out in that way then it may well be able to serve both purposes and do so without offending those who come, as I phrased it earlier, to grieve and show their respects.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Personally I don`t think it`s a bad idea. It may be in bad taste, but that`s a different topic.

Jewish groups don`t hide the images of the Holocust, so we never forget how twisted and wrong the minds of those invloved were. We don`t hide images of the lynchings and beatings that the American Civil Rights movment had to put up with. It can`t be an abosolutely horrible idea to hold these cockroaches up to the light and be able to point to them and say "This is what a twisted mind looks like. Don`t ever let someone tell you that this kind of thing is right or noble."

I like the statement made by providing the terrorists perspective. It would include them saying stuff like "We were repressed by Imperialists", and "our religion demands it of us that we do this thing to the glory of our dieties"...which would prove a point more lucidly than any other thing could at the site: That people do some insane s&#t and hold some insane grudges, causing them to feel justified in committing heinous acts of mass murder for really stupid reasons.

So...some guy is walking along, thinking, "Surely...for a "terrorist" to do this, the Americans must have been running a secret holocaust of sorts against these poor victimized people, and the only way for them to seek justice or call attention to their cause was by committing this hideous act of mass destruction". They wander on a bit more, expecting to see where we have lined up tons of Saudi citizens and gassed them with Zyklon B. But their wandering bring them instead to a wall of pictures and words that say, effectively, "My blatantly stupid and patently ridiculous religious sensibilities caused me not to celebrate god-given life, but end it...cuz I'm a dumba**, unable to think for myself, unable to critically evaluate the slop someone else is feeding to me about the Glory of our God and the Evils of those other people 'over there', so -- as an idiot among idiots, I choose to do this stupid thing."

Said tourist stops wondering about the massive graves of slaughtered genocidal victims and obvious death squads of American forces that must surley be wandering the Middle East, slaying indiscriminately on Saudi soil in order to raise such ire, and gets a sense of these martyrs for what they really were -- functionally retarded and spiritually insane murderers.

So...go ahead and wander through the museum wondering, "My god...who would ever consider doing such a thing, and why?", then bump into that display. And realize that modern humanity is not as modern as all that. And that the enemy we are fighting is not a reasoned man coming from a reasoned decision to fight a reasoned war based on reasonable circumstances. But a religious nutjob kook who must be eliminated and taken out like the morning trash, before they get this kind of momentum going again.

Then make sure you vote for people who insist we get out of there before the job is done, so the nutballs have a chance to reorganize around doing it some more. Cuz we need more monuments to thousands of dead Americans, yeah?

 

[celtic_crippler]

Upon further thought...

I think it's nonsense to provide any legitimacy to the motives of the hijackers and their terrorist act, be it in a museum or a memorial.

The only thing that should be said of thier perspective was that it was evil, warped, and malicious and that we should do what we can to prevent future attacks.

 

[CanuckMA]

Upon further thought...

I think it's nonsense to provide any legitimacy to the motives of the hijackers and their terrorist act, be it in a museum or a memorial.

The only thing that should be said of thier perspective was that it was evil, warped, and malicious and that we should do what we can to prevent future attacks.

It has no place in a memorial.

But in a museum, yes. We may not agree with their reasons, but to simply dismiss their acts has disconnected evil is to condemn ourselves to repeat whatever they perceive as being wrong.

 

[Big Don]

It has no place in a memorial.

But in a museum, yes. We may not agree with their reasons, but to simply dismiss their acts has disconnected evil is to condemn ourselves to repeat whatever they perceive as being wrong.

NO.

We do NOT need to understand the ins and outs of the murdering terrorist bastards to know terrorism is evil, that hijacking planes and flying them into buildings is bad.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

NO.

We do NOT need to understand the ins and outs of the murdering terrorist bastards to know terrorism is evil, that hijacking planes and flying them into buildings is bad.

We do not need to know them. But we can represent them in contrast so people can see the idiocy of them.

 

[Big Don]

We do not need to know them. But we can represent them in contrast so people can see the idiocy of them.

We can do that without their viewpoints.

 

[CanuckMA]

NO.

We do NOT need to understand the ins and outs of the murdering terrorist bastards to know terrorism is evil, that hijacking planes and flying them into buildings is bad.

If you don't understand their tinking and rationale, you'll never be able to stamp out terrorism.

 

[Big Don]

If you don't understand their tinking and rationale, you'll never be able to stamp out terrorism.

There is a term for that, but, we aren't allowed to use it here, it refers to the feces of domesticated male bovines.