Father of 9/11 Victim Fights to Have 'Murdered by Muslim Terrorists' Inscribed on Son's Me

[Bob Hubbard]

What do terrorist groups have in common?

They use threat and terror to instill control in those around them.
- You will do this or your sister will die.
- You will do this or we will blow something up
- You will do this or you will suffer.

Some do it for political gain, some for personal, and some in the name of religion.

The KKK was formed to defend the rights of Southerners that were being trampled on after their nation was conquered by the United States's illegal war of subjugation over trade tariffs (not slavery). It (the KKK) resorted to terrorist activities to force the local puppet governments hand and influence local events, by attacking innocent blacks and whites who they saw as enemies. It's violence was condemned by numerous former Confederate Generals, including Nathan Forrest (rumored to be the 1st Grand Wizard). It was disbanded shortly, only to be reborn years later as a hate organization. I debunked the Slavery myths repeatedly, a search of this site will turn up those debates.

I've read about 6 or 7 versions of the Christian bible. It's an interesting book, one filled with sex, incest, violence, and worse. It's also an enlightening book filled with hope, and positive thoughts, and advice on love, life and everything. I find the Koran to be similar, though geared towards a different culture than mine, so it speaks things in different ways.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism, in fact most main stream faiths are peaceful. What we have is people, misunderstanding, misinterpreting, mistranslating and misleading for personal and political gain.

Again, the subject of the OP, it is factually correct. His son was killed by Muslim terrorists. It's also wrong, in that if you understand the faith, you would understand that the terrorists were not true Muslims, any more than Jim Jones was a true Christian.

 

[sadantkd]

With all due respect, your version of history is completely wrong. Just because you posted a bunch of untrue talking points from racist organizations doesn't debunk the history the entire world knows.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

the crusades? Oh you mean the struggle to get back the lands the invading Muslims had stolen from Christians? I don't know what kind of so-called proof somebody used to try and change the history of the civil war, but the facts are well known.

Crusades
These wars were fought centuries after the land was conquered. It would be akin to England invading the US today to regain their former colony.

Civil War
Revisiting the Past - The Road to War : Causes
Researching the Past - An examination of the concept of Secession
Revisiting the Past : Part 3 - An re-examination of the concept of Secession
Revisiting the Past : Pt 4 - The Institution of Slavery as a cause for war. By Bob Hubbard

 

[Bob Hubbard]

With all due respect, your version of history is completely wrong. Just because you posted a bunch of untrue talking points from racist organizations doesn't debunk the history the entire world knows.

History was written by the winners. My writings on Lincoln's Tariff War are backed up with solid fact.

Also, have you read the Koran? I have.
How many Christian bibles have you read? I own 6, have read them all cover to cover.

 

[Tez3]

the crusades? Oh you mean the struggle to get back the lands the invading Muslims had stolen from Christians? I don't know what kind of so-called proof somebody used to try and change the history of the civil war, but the facts are well known.

Oh it was the Christian's lands in the first place was it? I don't think so.


This thread is staggering away from the OP and is in danger of imploding.

It's human nature to want to hit out when people they care for are hurt and killed but we don't all carry that threat out. Of course there were attacks on Muslims, we had them here after the July bombings, they were carried out by the ignorant, the stupid, the bigotted and the malicious. That doesn't mean the whole of a country is like that, it means we have people like that everywhere. Denying that fact is sticking your head in the sand, luckily we have more 'good' people than bad but it doesn't do any of any good by pretending these attacks didn't happen or that they 'couldn't happen'.

The majority of Muslims are like the rest of us, they worry about their families, their jobs, keeping a roof over their heads, just as we do. External factors heap pressure on them as it does with us, heaping blame on all Muslims is unfair. How many of you disagree with your current president? How many of you are in a position to overthrow him? I can't get rid of my government so how do you think Muslims are likely to get rid of theirs when in many places they don't have a democracy? Oh it's so easy to judge sat in your livingrooms watching your televisions, how many are brave enough to stand and be counted when your families lives are at risk? How many times have you got angry when 'all Americans' are maligned or America is blamed for all the worlds ills?

Place blame squarely on the shoulders of those to blame, Al Queda and the Taliban have killed as many Muslims as they have non Muslims, if not more actually.

 

[Tez3]

With all due respect, your version of history is completely wrong. Just because you posted a bunch of untrue talking points from racist organizations doesn't debunk the history the entire world knows.

Actually the entire world doesn't know, I didn't learn anything about the American Civil War whilst at school and only have a hazy idea of what it was about so I'd bow happily to Bob's knowledge of the whys and wherefores. The American Civil War isn't covered at all in most countries educational curriculum.
Here in the UK it was one specific group of Christians who fought to have slavery abolished and that was The Society of Friends (Quakers) the only group of Christians Iknow who truly haven't laid a finger in anger against any other human and have done everything they could to aid others.

Bob now there's a thought, England coming to take over America! It would only be the lands though presumably that we lost not all the 'newer' bits?

 

[jks9199]

Attention all users:

Please return to the original topic.

jks9199
Sr. Moderator

 

[shesulsa]

And, what is the main thing those terrorist groups have in common? It's right on the tip of my tongue.

Mine too. That word is "hate."

Friend, there are Christian terrorists, Islamic terrorists, atheist terrorists, you name it. The word is "hate" and that's ALL she wrote.

With all due respect, your version of history is completely wrong. Just because you posted a bunch of untrue talking points from racist organizations doesn't debunk the history the entire world knows.

What would be YOUR reference points to support your statements? Please link. Cuz that's how it works around here. Thanks.

 

[shesulsa]

Sorry, mods.

The point, though, is - I think - whether there is a bona fide need to put "muslim" on a headstone in reference to the 9/11 terrorists.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

To wrap up some tangents here, I provided 4 threads for civil war discussion, We can also spin that off into a new one if anyone would care to discuss that more. Please start a thread is so.

Regarding the Crusades, it's an interesting topic, and again, I would love the chance to really dig into that topic, so if anyone else does, please feel free to start a new thread.

We can then return this one to the headstone topic.

 

[Tez3]

A Civil War thread would be good, I'd like to learn more about the history and also how it has affected people today. I imagine apart from slavery it changed a great many things.
A Crusades thread would be useful because it is very much in modern Muslims minds and I know many fear a modern crusade, a discussion could be constructive. I don't have enough knowledge of either to start them though.

 

[JDenver]

I'm getting to this way late, and this may seem odd, but here goes;

I have no idea who perpetrated the attacks on 9/11.

Why? Well, cause the FBI, despite that desks and file cabinets were obliterated into dust in those buildings, managed to find intact photo ID's of the hijackers. They were all Muslim men from the Middle East. Only problem was those men were still alive, still living in the Middle East. Still are. They peacefully go about their lives. Those passports were either stolen or faked.

I guess I could assume that the hijackers were Muslim terrorists from somewhere in the Middle East, but because we don't actually know all of their identities, this becomes a wee problem.

 

[Reggy]

Mine too. That word is "hate."

Friend, there are Christian terrorists, Islamic terrorists, atheist terrorists, you name it. The word is "hate" and that's ALL she wrote.



What would be YOUR reference points to support your statements? Please link. Cuz that's how it works around here. Thanks.

Shesulsa.

It is the moral equivalence, that I see as problematic. I know that you believe all these religions have been equally immoral at times in their own histories and have been terrorists towards other civilizations....I agree with you on this.....But.....at THIS point in time (and this is the only point in time that we can affect), it is people under the banner of Islam (and I've already said, it's just a few of millions of peaceful Muslims), that are terrorizing many areas of the world and that is why I believe it is fine to call it what it is, right now.....Islamic Terrorism. Doesn't mean that Christians haven't done it, and Jews haven't and Hindus haven't and when these religions did terrorize others, don't you think that those victimized civilizations called, it what it was at THAT time, be it Christians, Jews, etc.....?????Sure they did!.....my issue is more with how we've all become uncomfortable with calling evil, evil. Whereas, in the past, we did seem able to do so, to face the facts.....so you see, I believe that it's the "slippery slope" of moral equivalency and false civility, that are the greatest threat to our civilized way of life....not, who happens to be doing the evil at this time in history.....Does that make sense?

This is why I would prefer that this Father get his wish....not to "stick it" to Islam.

 

[Tez3]

The problem with saying Muslims killed his son, is that while the religion of his killers was that, it's also the religion of a huge number of people who have no wish to kill anyone and are being tarred with the same brush. Hence it's more accurate to state he was killed by Al Queda terrotists. Stating blandly 'oh it was Muslims' is to ignore that Islam has different beliefs and sects some of which are persecuted by the same terrorists that target us. There are many Muslims who have no part in terrorism such as the Maldive Islanders, Indonesians,Malaysians, the people of Brunei etc.
We have to be accurate and lay this evil at the door of those who perpetrate it. As I said before those killed here by the IRA, have that stated, we know who the IRA are, what they stand for and who they are killing ( yes it's in the present tense because their terrorists are still active) The only people who say the dead were killed by Catholics are those Protestants who also perpetuate and practice violence which is why this conflict has gone on for so long and despite peace talks look to continue well into this century and probably the next.
To many peoples minds it is 'politically correct' and very wrong to lay the blame on 'Muslims' as such, it spells out that we don't want to actually blame the people responsible but would rather use mealy mouthed generalisations and labels.
Far better to put on the memorial the names of the killers and who they did their horrible work for.

 

[shesulsa]

I think the bottom line here is that there are people who think there is value in acknowledging the difference between a religious group and a terrorist religious group even to the extent of demarking another's grave, and those who don't.

Reason has nothing to do with it - to include "Muslim" is an emotional choice made by a grieving father. It's understandable given the situation. It's also just not what I would do.

 

[arnisador]

And by the way, the point of his post is absolutely ridiculous. There is nothing in Christianity, or in our holy book that justifies lynching blacks. It was Christians who formed the abolitionist movement that led to the formation of the Republican party and the Civil war faught to end slavery.

It was Christians who effectuated New World slavery and Christianity that was used to justify it. Robert E. Lee states the position that what was being done to the Africans was for their good, as the Jews' time in Egypt ultimately was for them:

"The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence."

Christianity was the means of identifying the Africans as heathens in need of Christian help, for their own good. Intolerance of non-Christians a fundamental tenet of Christianity, and saving others forcibly from the Christians' view of hell is certainly ensconced in the Christian tradition.

Edited to add: Your history is wrong mate. The Civil War fallacies were debunked here by Kaith and a few others way back when.

A few conspiracy theorists here--actually, it was mostly just Kaith--convinced themselves that up was down. The rest of the world hasn't yet accepted the Great MartialTalk Debunking.

 

[arnisador]

Actually the entire world doesn't know, I didn't learn anything about the American Civil War whilst at school and only have a hazy idea of what it was about so I'd bow happily to Bob's knowledge of the whys and wherefores.

Please, please, please don't do that. Wikipedia would be a much better source.

 

[arnisador]

atheist terrorists

Example, please?

 

[arnisador]

Having seen now the request to get back on topic:

The terrorists had many qualities in common, including being male, but their voluntary membership in Al Qaeda seems to be the main factor here. Their religion was of course a factor in what happened--all the Abrahamic religions are violent and their members are prone to extremism of various sorts (not always violent). Putting their religion on the marker seems spoiling for a fight--a last chance to hurl an insult.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

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Please continue the US Civil War discussion here
US Civil War Myths and Facts