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coffeerox

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None are so blind as those that won't see.

Mook Jon man, everything you said is true, but some won't listen to you, even though it is obvious you have experience behind what you are saying. Let it be. We've said our peace. If it does good and helps someone actually find a teacher and really learn then great. If not, then let them live in thier fantasy.

What are you talking about? Both me and Tanaku are in agreement with mook jong man. However we are trying to get you guys to understand a bit more about what self-training is, even if it's not martial arts.

To be fair, we know about self-training and you don't, it's natural that Tanaka and I have more authority on the subject than anybody else here. You can't dismiss something you don't know about. Even if you are experienced in martial arts, you haven't tried to self-train one with the experience of self-training. Like I said before, that is a skill in itself.
 

MJS

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To be fair, we know about self-training and you don't, it's natural that Tanaka and I have more authority on the subject than anybody else here. You can't dismiss something you don't know about. Even if you are experienced in martial arts, you haven't tried to self-train one with the experience of self-training. Like I said before, that is a skill in itself.

Actually, I know quite a bit about self teaching. My Kenpo schools would give handouts to the students, for each belt level. On these hand outs, would be listed all of the basics, katas and techs for that belt level, as well as written beakdowns of the techs. The guides were to be used as just that...A GUIDE, not a tool to replace a live teacher. Some students would use the guide to go thru all of the techs, then they would come to class and proceed to tell me they were ready to be tested on their SD techs. I would think, how is this possible, seeing they just got their new rank? More mistakes than I could count. Sure, some techs were simple enough to figure out, but I still had to make corrections, even if they were minor ones. Fact is, they'd have been able to progress quicker, had they let a teacher teach them, rather than try to figure it out.
 

matsu

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its stupid me again...getting involved in a discussion that has got so pointless its riduclous lol but here i am again..

Originally Posted by Tanaka
I do not do Chinese Martial arts,
tanaka- i did karate for 9yrs and i could have learnt a fair bit of that via video and i would have picked up bad habits and they could have been corrected at a later stage so i agree that in my experience i could ahave got what you did,i am afraid i will disagree when it comes to wingchun.
it is a whole different ball game and unless you get to touch hands with an experienced practioner you will never know because as mook says, you have to feel it!
forget what you have seen on youtube etc unless you are rolling with someone you will never know how it works or how damn difficult it is.....and more importanlty WHY we do it!


Like Tanaka, I learned computers by myself as well, and a lot of that is due to research and actual experience working with a computer's hardware and software. I'm not certified, but I can build my own computer with whatever specs I want, features, you name it, I can do it. I can also setup my own network with appropriate security. To many, this is a very complex thing that they only trust to professionals. Are you going to tell me I can't do this?

coffeerox- computers dont fight back please dont compare online learning computers with martial arts. you cant learn to drive a car onlne anymore than you can learn a sensory experience like to feel someones taan pressing outward so you can feel when to slip inside.

again...NO ONE HAS SAID DONT SELF LEARN,all we have said is you be able to do good wing chun with out a sifu to teach guide correct you is not possible
find a class or a teacher let them show you something and then go away and drill it to death,then come back get corrceted if need be,learn a new thing and repeat.
and mIster wongs wing chun is not real wing chun,it is a mismash of everything he could find.i like watching the guy and have learnt a few things from his hiwariowous vids, i dont doubt the guy is good in a fight just not at wing chun.

tanaka
Now to relate to the argument of this thread. Do not be infuriated with Coffeerox. He is free to self train as this is a free world. He seems to realize that he needs a teacher(which is true), and that it's better to have a teacher(which is true). So he is obviously not promoting self teaching, or encouraging others to self teach themselves. But to say or act as if self training is completely useless(is not true). But to be proficient, you definitely need to get a teacher as soon as possible. Or do not expect to be taken serious(until proving yourself). Because it's not fair to say you're representing an art, when you have no official teaching from someone in that art.

i believe we have tried for 5 or is it 6 pages on this thread alone to say just that.
it is not coffeerox position that infuriates us, it is non acceptance and attitude to the more experienced "real" wingchun practioners who have been trying to help him.
matsu
 

MJS

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Sigh....another useless thread, but I've got nothing better to do right now, so I'll reply on deaf ears again. :D

So, to all of the online sokes out there..lol...you all think that its just feel and on the fly correction? I beg to differ. You people are comparing a physical activity to reading text online from a college. LMAO! Thanks for the morning laugh. :D Basically, you people would rather progress, mistakes and all, and then go back and make corrections, rather than getting questions answered, mistakes fixed, right then and there. Basically you guys are learning twice. Its like taking 1 step forward and 5 back. LOL!

I should start my own online study group, so I could get a 2nd paycheck. 1 check from my full time job, and the 2nd from the suckers, who think they're learning, when they're really not.

Oh well, nothing I or anyone else says will matter, because the do it yourselfers, wont listen.

Of course, what I find very funny, is the folks who complain they got no money to train with a live teacher, but they got that money for video lessons? Hmmmm.......alrighty then. LMAO!!!
 

zepedawingchun

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What are you talking about? Both me and Tanaku are in agreement with mook jong man. However we are trying to get you guys to understand a bit more about what self-training is, even if it's not martial arts.

To be fair, we know about self-training and you don't, it's natural that Tanaka and I have more authority on the subject than anybody else here. You can't dismiss something you don't know about. Even if you are experienced in martial arts, you haven't tried to self-train one with the experience of self-training. Like I said before, that is a skill in itself.

I said I was done with this thread, but some dead horses won't stay dead.

Coffeerox, both mook jong man and me, and every one else who has opposed your opinion know what you're telling us. Maybe you think self teaching works for you and Tanaku, fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But for the rest of us mere mortals, it's the wrong thing to do. Wing Chun is not computers, nor is it anything like Karate. The only thing Wing Chun and Karate have in common is they are both self defense systems. I know because I was a successful Karate stylist for 11 years.

Don't think I don't understand your point of view. I found out about all the pitfalls of self teaching myself. Thirty years ago me and a close friend tried to self teach ourselves Wing CHun and it failed miserably. I was a very successful Shotokan sytlist, tournament fighter (got the trophies and the belts and the certificates to prove it somewhere in the attic), and a top notch athlete. When I finally found a sifu, I had to unlearn all the wrong and bad stuff I was doing. And I thought it was correct because it looked just like it did in the books. Boy, were we WAY off base.

Wing Chun is a complex and very technical art. There are some things you can learn on your own, but not very much. You can learn to punch, learn to block, learn to mimick forms. But even that should have the guidance of a qualified sifu to get it right. It's like knowing how to build a skyscraper, anybody can just slap 4 walls together and call it a day. But for it to be useful and safe, you have to know (most times go to school to learn construction) something about construction, building materials, how the whole process works, and then apprentice for sometime, and then have a building license, before you can build that skyscraper. To fully understand, teach and use Wing Chun properly, it's pretty much the same idea.

Self teaching is fine for some things. But not brain surgery, astro physics, and Wing Chun. It's too complex and difficult to do without the guidance of a qualified instructor.
 

WC_lun

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What are you talking about? Both me and Tanaku are in agreement with mook jong man. However we are trying to get you guys to understand a bit more about what self-training is, even if it's not martial arts.

To be fair, we know about self-training and you don't, it's natural that Tanaka and I have more authority on the subject than anybody else here. You can't dismiss something you don't know about. Even if you are experienced in martial arts, you haven't tried to self-train one with the experience of self-training. Like I said before, that is a skill in itself.


Yes, I do have experience with "self-training." I've taught myself lots of things. More important for this discussion I have over twenty years of training in various martial arts. For all of those years I have seen young men come in that were self-taught. Without an exception...I'll repeat that part, WITHOUT AN EXCEPTION none of them were good at kung fu. Some were phycially gifted and some very intellegent. However, they lacked fundamental knowledges that are the building blocks of good solid martial arts. How are you so different from any of these other young men? The odds say that you aren't.
 

zepedawingchun

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Is that in reality the only way for a human being to pick up information are through 5 senses(so far). In the video you use sight and hearing. This is how you're learning. In the school. What are you using? Essentially the same senses, but with an added touching.(Maybe smell&taste?). . . . . BUT the original way you're learning your lessons in class is having your teacher demonstrate it in front of you. That is how you FIRST learn, and if that is not done FIRST.

I beg to differ with you. I had a student for 3 months, several years ago who was blind. Yes, blind! Try teaching a blind person with a video tape or through pictures in a book. Or even just letting them watch you demonstrate, hahahahahaha. Sorry, doesn't work that way. The sense of touch for the sighted, blind, hearing impared, and everyone else is one of the best ways to learn. You can't fake the sense of touch, and the body and mind learns really quickly that way.

Sight is by far the more accepted way of teaching. However, every night in class I demonstrate something, only to go to each individual student because they are doing it wrong, and do what I demonstrated hands on. Because they feel the energy and what is happening, they learn how to do it correctly. And they pick it up much faster. Wing Chun is what we call a touchy-feely art. No way to get around it to learn it correctly.

The other night I had students doing chi sao blindfolded, so they could do the drills without seeing. Forcing them to feel what was going on instead of relying on what they thought they saw. Once you take your sight out of the equasion, feeling is the only way to understand what is happening. Videos, books, self teaching can't help you there. And chi sao is one of the most important learning experiences in Wing Chun. Sorry, self teaching can't help you there, you need a live person, who knows what they are doing, for that.
 

matsu

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Sight is by far the more accepted way of teaching. However, every night in class I demonstrate something, only to go to each individual student because they are doing it wrong, and do what I demonstrated hands on. Because they feel the energy and what is happening, they learn how to do it correctly.

zepedawingchun- i have only done about 5-6 hours worth of chisau and i am actually better at it with my eyes closed at this stage in my progress because its stops me trying to pre empt a move or watching the hands.
this is insane and im still very very bad at it but im trying to prove a point about feeling the way and that it cannot be learnt by just watching,be it a live demo or esp a vid etc.
matsu
 

Tanaka

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Actually, I know quite a bit about self teaching. My Kenpo schools would give handouts to the students, for each belt level. On these hand outs, would be listed all of the basics, katas and techs for that belt level, as well as written beakdowns of the techs. The guides were to be used as just that...A GUIDE, not a tool to replace a live teacher. Some students would use the guide to go thru all of the techs, then they would come to class and proceed to tell me they were ready to be tested on their SD techs. I would think, how is this possible, seeing they just got their new rank? More mistakes than I could count. Sure, some techs were simple enough to figure out, but I still had to make corrections, even if they were minor ones. Fact is, they'd have been able to progress quicker, had they let a teacher teach them, rather than try to figure it out.


" Fact is, they'd have been able to progress quicker, had they let a teacher teach them, rather than try to figure it out."

< That is what I said as well.

See here,

I said, "The bad thing of self teaching is(depending on the person), you can end up training yourself for a very long long time. And still find yourself at a white belt level, when you find legit training."


But the fact here is... That it's not impossible to learn something through self teaching. Just very difficult. As humans we cannot possess the knowledge to make an absolute claim. And even if you had no luck in self training yourself before reaching a school. Doesn't mean it's impossible for everyone.
I can turn the tables. What if I didn't do as good as I did with my self training?
I(myself) could still not say it absolutely cannot be done, but have only proven that it's very difficult.

I still do self training. Sometimes after a day at the dojo. I will watch youtube videos of the same technique I learned. And sometimes it helps me out a lot. Because people learn differently. The way your teacher explains it, might not be as easy for you to grasp as the way someone else might state it. Because people have different worldviews and take in information differently. Or even amongst your senior students trying to help you with a technique. The way they say it might make it more clearer than the way your teacher just said it. You're also correct in the fact that I do not know what Chi Sao is, but I just find it hard to believe it cannot be learned at all(even in a poor way) through a video demonstration.
 

zepedawingchun

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zepedawingchun- i have only done about 5-6 hours worth of chisau and i am actually better at it with my eyes closed at this stage in my progress because its stops me trying to pre empt a move or watching the hands.
this is insane and im still very very bad at it but im trying to prove a point about feeling the way and that it cannot be learnt by just watching,be it a live demo or esp a vid etc.
matsu

Just keep at it, it does get better. Don't let your eyes fool you. By relying on what you feel, you will be ahead of everyone else in the game. It takes a bit of time to get good at chi sao, don't become disappointed or let it bring you down. The more you do it the better you get. And don't be affraid to ask your sifu questions, cross hands with as many seniors as possible. To be the best you have to train with the best. Good luck.
 

Flying Crane

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Cofferox: You are absolutely right. After stepping back and considering your well thought out and logical ideas, I see now that I have been completely mistaken all along and I am willing to recant my earlier position. You are on the best path for you, and you will surely rise to the upper eshelon of wing chun. Best wishes on your training.

perhaps there's nothing left to say here.
 

MJS

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" Fact is, they'd have been able to progress quicker, had they let a teacher teach them, rather than try to figure it out."

< That is what I said as well.

See here,

I said, "The bad thing of self teaching is(depending on the person), you can end up training yourself for a very long long time. And still find yourself at a white belt level, when you find legit training."


Sooooo....if that is the case, wouldn't it make much more sense to wait until you can train under a live teacher? I do Parker Kenpo. Lets say I want to do Kajukenbo, but there're no teachers in my area. I'd have to fly to another state to train. So, instead, I buy a bunch of Kaju dvds, and attempt to figure out what to do. I decide to pack up and move to a state that has Kaju. I go to the school, confident because I bought the dvd set, only to be told that I suck and I'm doing things wrong. This is what we're trying to say to you and coffeerox.


But the fact here is... That it's not impossible to learn something through self teaching. Just very difficult. As humans we cannot possess the knowledge to make an absolute claim. And even if you had no luck in self training yourself before reaching a school. Doesn't mean it's impossible for everyone.
I can turn the tables. What if I didn't do as good as I did with my self training?
I(myself) could still not say it absolutely cannot be done, but have only proven that it's very difficult.

How do you know you'll be learning it right? I could get a cookbook by Emeril Lagasse, but that doesnt mean I'll ever be as good a cook.

I still do self training. Sometimes after a day at the dojo. I will watch youtube videos of the same technique I learned. And sometimes it helps me out a lot. Because people learn differently. The way your teacher explains it, might not be as easy for you to grasp as the way someone else might state it. Because people have different worldviews and take in information differently. Or even amongst your senior students trying to help you with a technique. The way they say it might make it more clearer than the way your teacher just said it. You're also correct in the fact that I do not know what Chi Sao is, but I just find it hard to believe it cannot be learned at all(even in a poor way) through a video demonstration.

Question for you: Do you have a real, live teacher you train with?
 

zepedawingchun

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You're also correct in the fact that I do not know what Chi Sao is, but I just find it hard to believe it cannot be learned at all(even in a poor way) through a video demonstration.

Tanaku, please don't be offended, but you can't debate about a subject or topic you know nothing about, such as self teaching Wing Chun. My answer below is why.

Chi sao is a touch sensitive drill which helps you develop sensitivity to your opponents energy (touch pressure) directed at you so you can read there physical intention of how or where they will attempt to strike, hit, trap, or in any way control or hold you. You learn from what you feel so you can develop the skills to counter or re-direct their energy or intentions towards you without having to see it, or guess at it, just feel it. You can't learn that from a book or video because every encounter (drill) is free flowing and without being pre-arranged. True chi sao is not set or pre-arranged. It is totally different energies from person to person. It is done randomly and with different energies, pressures, intentions, hand positions, postures, etc. You must be able to make contact with them, using your bridge (hands and forearms), to touch them so you can counter them without guessing so you can get it right. A poor way of chi sao just gets you hit or beaten up repeatedly. You are defenseless.

That is why you can't learn Wing Chun or chi sao from a book, video, or teaching yourself. It is a physical skill learned and developed through touch alone. Let me rephrase that, Wing Chun is mainly helping you to develop phyical skills (in this case, self defense) through touch. Can't be done from a book, video, or self teaching. Must be done with the guidance of someone who knows how to do it.
 
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matsu

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Just keep at it, it does get better. Don't let your eyes fool you. By relying on what you feel, you will be ahead of everyone else in the game. It takes a bit of time to get good at chi sao, don't become disappointed or let it bring you down. The more you do it the better you get. And don't be affraid to ask your sifu questions, cross hands with as many seniors as possible. To be the best you have to train with the best. Good luck.

thanks mate.this is what i,m trying to do.

tanaka- again please do not feel we have taken the arguement to you.this is not the case-you have taken a stance on a subject you have no experience in so it is really difficult to get you to understand what we are trying to explain to others with similar views on this thread.
when i said that you cannot learn to drive by video i hoped you would understand,its the doing,the feeling,the reaction aspect that you cannot learn.

i too use youtube or dvds to supplement my classes.they are invaluable, but they will/could never replace touching hands.
matsu
 

coffeerox

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I give up. You guys just don't get it do you? I keep saying I AGREE WITH YOU!!!! So stop arguing about teacher this and teacher that. WE UNDERSTAND WE NEED A TEACHER TO GUIDE US!

However you guys clearly have no experience self-teaching and don't know anything about it. Don't claim that you do until you learn something complex like computers or even cooking and yes cooking is a complex art. To me, it sounds like you are just continuing the argument despite both of us saying that we agree with you. It's not even a valid discussion anymore because you reject everything being told to you.

What are you going to tell me next, that I can't win a national fighting game tournament attended by professionals practicing by myself?
 

MJS

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I give up. You guys just don't get it do you? I keep saying I AGREE WITH YOU!!!! So stop arguing about teacher this and teacher that. WE UNDERSTAND WE NEED A TEACHER TO GUIDE US!


THEN STOP TALKING ABOUT HOW SUPERIOR SELF TRAINING IS AND GO GET A REAL TEACHER!!!!! STOP COMING UP WITH 1,001 EXCUSES AS TO WHY YOU CAN'T TRAIN RIGHT NOW, WAIT UNTIL YOU GET YOUR PRIORITIES IN ORDER AND THEN WORRY ABOUT TRAINING!!!! THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I PERSONALLY HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR A WHILE NOW!!!!

However you guys clearly have no experience self-teaching and don't know anything about it. Don't claim that you do until you learn something complex like computers or even cooking and yes cooking is a complex art. To me, it sounds like you are just continuing the argument despite both of us saying that we agree with you. It's not even a valid discussion anymore because you reject everything being told to you.

What are you going to tell me next, that I can't win a national fighting game tournament attended by professionals practicing by myself?

Umm....did you read my post earlier in this useless thread about how my school handed out study guides, and people were using them to learn the techs from?? I dont think that anyone said that you wont learn anything, however the quality of what you're learning will either be sub-par or just suck altogether!!!!! THAT is the difference.

You're coming on here, preaching as if you're some master of WC, when in reality, there are probably people here, who've been doing WC longer than you've been alive or pretty close to it. So, instead of arguing with people, left and right, listen for once, and get a real teacher!!!!
 

WC_lun

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I give up. You guys just don't get it do you? I keep saying I AGREE WITH YOU!!!! So stop arguing about teacher this and teacher that. WE UNDERSTAND WE NEED A TEACHER TO GUIDE US!

However you guys clearly have no experience self-teaching and don't know anything about it. Don't claim that you do until you learn something complex like computers or even cooking and yes cooking is a complex art. To me, it sounds like you are just continuing the argument despite both of us saying that we agree with you. It's not even a valid discussion anymore because you reject everything being told to you.

What are you going to tell me next, that I can't win a national fighting game tournament attended by professionals practicing by myself?

Actually I've taught myself what I know of computers, cooking, and playing the guitar. So I've got a bit of experience with self teaching. You say you agree then continue with stating things to the contrary.

As far as your last statement, strike the word "game" out of it and I would indeed say you could not win.

Your post make you sound like a teenager. Is this the case? If this is the case, there isn't anything wrong with it. However, your doing the typical teenage thing and not listening to what people with more experience are telling you.

Finally, you have not answered my question in how your solo training is more effective than all the other young men I have seen over two plus decades. I really am interested in understanding how your experience is so much more valid than thiers.
 

coffeerox

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THEN STOP TALKING ABOUT HOW SUPERIOR SELF TRAINING IS AND GO GET A REAL TEACHER!!!!! STOP COMING UP WITH 1,001 EXCUSES AS TO WHY YOU CAN'T TRAIN RIGHT NOW, WAIT UNTIL YOU GET YOUR PRIORITIES IN ORDER AND THEN WORRY ABOUT TRAINING!!!! THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I PERSONALLY HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR A WHILE NOW!!!!

Uh no ****? I'm not talking about how superior self-training is. I'm talking about it's process and how it's a skill on it's own. I'm not even talking about martial arts anymore.

Listen to yourself, you want to keep saying the same **** despite everybody being on the same page. It's just showing me that you want to keep arguing and keep yelling at me until there's nothing left, and/or me blowing up at you. Just stfu goddamn.

Another thing I want to get off my chest. It's not even about the topic, that is not what you even want to discuss. I gave you the dominant position and then what do you do? You go off on me. I don't even respect you, I don't even care. I don't listen to a goddamn word you say.

You say you agree then continue with stating things to the contrary.

I agree, however I am no longer talking about martial arts. Thats the problem that you and MJS won't understand and you guys keep pressing the issue that it's freaking me the hell out right now.

As far as your last statement, strike the word "game" out of it and I would indeed say you could not win.

Yeah way to twist my comment in your favor right? That's not even what the **** I'm talking about. I clearly said game. Learn to read.
 
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wtxs

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Martial arts online learning is not yet at a level where it's entirely viable to do it with just you and a partner, however, I do not believe it's an impossibility. We just need a guy out there, somewhere, that is able to transmit the entire system in a format that is possible for two practitioners to absorb and practice on their own.

What do you call the GUY you are referring to of having all those qualifications? A really live teacher. It is impossible to convey sensitivity, forward pressure, structure, angling/facing, correct timing and other subtle insights via any other medium. Bottom line ... self/video/online learning of martial art is rife with limitations, and will never replace the real thing.:argue:
 

MJS

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Uh no ****? I'm not talking about how superior self-training is. I'm talking about it's process and how it's a skill on it's own. I'm not even talking about martial arts anymore.

Listen to yourself, you want to keep saying the same **** despite everybody being on the same page. It's just showing me that you want to keep arguing and keep yelling at me until there's nothing left, and/or me blowing up at you. Just stfu goddamn.



I agree, however I am no longer talking about martial arts. Thats the problem that you and MJS won't understand and you guys keep pressing the issue that it's freaking me the hell out right now.



Yeah way to twist my comment in your favor right? That's not even what the **** I'm talking about. I clearly said game. Learn to read.

Chill out little man! Oh, and perhaps this will interest you.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1304996&postcount=70

Says the self taught WC master. You jump around from one thing to the next. 1 min. you're talking about your sad situation, the next you're talking about self training, then you admit that it isn't good....you're all over the board.

Maybe instead of looking for sympathy, you'll chill out, learn to be humble, and listen to what the more experienced are telling you.
 
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