Yan Jeung (?) Question

[hunt1]

Xue Sheng, since you have studied the other arts you should know both pre-natal and post- natal breathing. Practice the section with both types of breathing and you will discover the answer you are seeking.

Also keep in mind Yip Man changed the section to one hand at a time. Older versions of wing chun both hands are done at same time on the sides. practice both. Again the breathing will tell you the difference.

 

[geezer]

...Also keep in mind Yip Man changed the section to one hand at a time. Older versions of wing chun both hands are done at same time on the sides. practice both...

Hunt, could you elaborate a bit on this? I'm not all that up on WC/VT history. Goodness knows I have my hands full learning the current version I study. However, I've seen picture sequences of old versions of SNT/SLT done by disciples of Ng Chun So, the prominent student of Chan Wah Shun who taught Yip Man in Fatshan after Chan died. There are many differences between these forms and what Grandmaster Yip later taught, but they did do the side gum-sau movements sequentially, not simultaneously. Wouldn't this suggest that doing the side gum-sau movements one at a time pre-dates Grandmaster Yip?

 

[Vajramusti]

The nice thing about this forum is that it is fairly civil and different POVs can be expressed without rancor.
FWIW, IMO---there is a good reason in Ip Man's formulation of wing chun why the first gum sao is done one hand at a time before moving on to the rest of the section which has two handed motions.
The first gum sao in slt is done with the palm going directly down on the side of the body in line with the shoulder. the other two handed gum saos go a little backward or forward.
Developing the attributes in slt is not fighting- you are sharpening your motions IMO. If you do both arms in gum sao at the same time STRAIGHT DOWN- there is the danger of bouncing your stance(ygkym) and structure up wards.
Doing it one at a time minimizes this undesirable possibility of "bouncing"..

joy chaudhuri

 

[hunt1]

Geezer this gets into one of the black holes of wing chun.

The wing chun of Chan Wahs grandson does not have the single palms to the side. Other families like Cho or YKS have the palms done as one motion.

The thing about NG Chung So is that he taught at Yui Choi's business. At that time, unlike today, most of the wing chun people in Fatshan no matter what source their wing chun gathered to talk and train there. So there was a lot of swapping etc. However later friction and jealousy led to many "forgetting" what went on there.

For example YKS people claim YKS invented the chi sao rolling and taught it to Yip Man. This ignores the fact that the rolling is part of the chum kui form of Yui Choi. It is far more likely that the rolling platform came from their training at Ng Chung So's.

It is possible that Yip Learned this method from Leung Bik and others liked it and incorporated it. Several sources out side of Yip Man students passed down the Yip was innovative.

I wasn't there so have no way to know the definitive truth on anything in wing chun history but both direct students of Yip and people from non Yip wing chun have told me this was one of Yips signatures.

 

[cwk]

Geezer this gets into one of the black holes of wing chun.

The wing chun of Chan Wahs grandson does not have the single palms to the side. Other families like Cho or YKS have the palms done as one motion.

Actually, Cho family WCK (the way that I was taught) does left, then right, then both together to the rear and front.

 

[geezer]

...The thing about NG Chung So is that he taught at Yui Choi's business. At that time, unlike today, most of the wing chun people in Fatshan no matter what source their wing chun gathered to talk and train there. So there was a lot of swapping etc...

This is fascinating to me. Today, many "Grandmasters" and their "true believer" followers try to convey the impression that their lineage or brand is somehow the only authentic version of the art, and that it is the most "original" or authentic form. While in reality it seems that WC/VT/WT has always been evolving. Even back in Fatshan in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries practitioners would gather, train, discuss and exchange knowledge and techniques and even alter their forms. Studying this history to better understand what we do seems very worthwhile to me. On the other hand, trying to use it to establish the superiority of one group or lineage over another by virtue of some purported greater antiquity (as some groups have done) has no merit, especially in light of the kind of cross-fertilization that you describe above. From the perspective of efficacy we will always debate about which approach to WC is best, but all authentic lineages benefit from an accurate accounting of their roots.

 

[hpclub1000]

Pak Sau is the Slap. Gum Sau is to pin. Gum Sau is used from a position of contact to press. Pak Sao is doen from a position of none contact to slap. Pak Sau can flow into Gum Sau naturally after the slap if that suits the moment.

Just becuase in the forms we do the movement low does not mean its a Gum Sau. It may just be a low Pak Sau.

just my opinion.

 

[hpclub1000]

It maybe confusing for them to understand , but the concept actually simplifies things a great deal when you are trying to apply mental force to your technique.

We know that the arm rotates from the shoulder , but its a lot more simple to visualise your elbow moving than it is to try and concentrate on all the different rotations that might be going on in the shoulder .

For example with a Bong Sau your arm might be rotating in the socket and at the same time moving up or down from the shoulder joint.

Thats quite a lot to be concentrating on , rather than just thinking I'll relax my shoulders and project from the elbow.

I think as westerners we try to really complicate things a bit sometimes .

Actually come to think of it this makes alot of sense. Thanks Mook

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have been going very slowly through the book

Wing Chun Kung Fu
Traditional Chinese Kung Fu
For Self-Defense
And Health
Ip Chun with Michael Tse

And I came to the applications section and it had something on Yan Jeung.

But first I will say I know that in many CMA styles one form can have hundreds of applications so any that have already been posted for Yan Jeung are equally valid.

This is from the book

Yan Jueng to front elbow strike

1) Opponent grabs Michael’s right arm and tightens his grip. Michael stays calm

2) Stepping forward Michael uses his forward Yan Jeung to jerk his opponent off balance, and so he will release his grip.

3) Having broken the grip, Michael sharply pulls his opponents hand (Lap Sau)) with his left hand at the same time as striking with his right elbow

Yan Jeung to Palm strike

1) Opponent grabs Michael’s right wrist

2) Michael steps backwards and at the same time executes a backwards Yan Jeung which pulls his opponent off balance

3) As his opponent straightens up to regain balance, Michael, using the same hand hits his opponents face with a palm strike

In these applications I see some similarity to applications of Cai from the 13 postures of Yang Style Taijiquan which is more of a yank than a block. However in Cai it is more like a whip that can really mess someone up all the way to their neck. But it could also be used, like Yan Jeung is being used here, to unbalance someone and then attack

 

[wtxs]

It maybe confusing for them to understand , but the concept actually simplifies things a great deal when you are trying to apply mental force to your technique.

We know that the arm rotates from the shoulder , but its a lot more simple to visualise your elbow moving than it is to try and concentrate on all the different rotations that might be going on in the shoulder .

For example with a Bong Sau your arm might be rotating in the socket and at the same time moving up or down from the shoulder joint.

Thats quite a lot to be concentrating on , rather than just thinking I'll relax my shoulders and project from the elbow.
I think as westerners we try to really complicate things a bit sometimes .

Mook, hope you don't mind if I jump in along with you on this.

Visualize the arm is ball hinged to the shoulder, you extend the arm/elbow/hand forward like you would to touch your significant other's face ... would be in deep sh.t if you had "thrown your shoulder into it", can you say ... black eye.

Or you can make comparison (side view) to the train's steam engine driving wheels, the front is attached to the rear via an connecting rod/link. Using the rear wheel as the reference point (should), and the rod/link as the arm ... as the wheel turns, see it cycles back and forward

The hinge concept really comes to play for some one which haven't fully adapted, especially in prolonged chi sao sessions.

Just as you had said, relax the shoulders and forward project from the elbows, the rotations will happen on its own ... as hidden some where in the SLT.