New From the WKKA...Kenpo Self Protection

[clfsean]

Of course not. There a plenty of applications contained in forms based on the interpretation of the same movements.

Ok... at least that's a little more realistic.

Again, for at least the third time, I said that many traditional schools are teaching UNREALISTIC APPLICATIONS of the techniques contained within their katas.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Could you give a rock solid example of a single UNREALISTIC APPLICATION taught within a traditional school's kata as you've encountered in your experience?? Something simple that we'll all recognize & first describe what you encountered as taught buy that teacher. Maybe something from a Pinan/Heian??

 

[Seabrook]

Could you give a rock solid example of a single UNREALISTIC APPLICATION taught within a traditional school's kata as you've encountered in your experience?? Something simple that we'll all recognize & first describe what you encountered as taught buy that teacher. Maybe something from a Pinan/Heian??

I already have.


Jamie Seabrook

 

[Flying Crane]

I already have.


Jamie Seabrook

Well, you did list some examples from your experience. I don't know the specific kata that you mentioned, so I can't comment too much about that, but I do understand what you are saying about "hands on hips" and such.

However, these experiences may not be representative of these arts across the board. If you have worked with and taught some of these instructors, then you have managed to develop some kind of relationship with them. They may like and respect you and what you have to offer, and are open minded and interested in learning some kenpo. I think in your case, perhaps you have developed a situation that is beneficial for all involved. But I think this is the only way it can be done: one-on-one, like you have done it. When people get to know and respect each other, they are more open to learning from each other. Barriers and ego gets lowered and minds open up.

But I think your situation and experiences with these other schools is unlikely to be the norm. Probably most other schools don't perceive a deficiency in their system (whether a deficiency exists in truth, or not). They may cross train with other schools that are convenient and close, and are or are not kenpo schools, since cross training is common. But again, I don't think the program, as presented by WKKA, would be successful on a broad scale, for the reasons I have listed earlier. I really doubt that some random instructor from some random, non-kenpo system, is going to see that advertisement on that website, pick up the phone and make a call to sign up. Unless a connection with a specific kenpo instructor is made in some other way, I just don't see this happening.

I guess I am trying to keep the discussion centered more around the WKKA program, since that is the topic of the thread.

 

[arnisador]

I remember being at a martial arts summer camp for Modern Arnis in Lansing, Michigan one summer. A Kenpo brown belt was telling Mr. Hartman and me about how great Kenpo was. She explained that, unlike in other arts, every move in Kenpo was scientifically designed for effectiveness and every move was understood and important. We asked her to demonstrate a form. She did. Afterward I asked her why she made a certain move (left arm is out from a punch, right arm goes beneath it with one finger pointing up, others bent, and rests alongside the tricep). She said, "I don't know; we just do it." She had memorized the spiel but obviously hadn't thought about it. In fact, I don't think the contradictiuon even registered for her. I knew one interpretation of the move from a Kung Fu teacher...who didn't regard it as a fighting technique.

At my first tournament I fought a slightly higher-ranked Kenpoist who had been studying longer than I had. I beat him 3-0 on two roundhouse kicks and a reverse punch. Afterwards he came up to me...to explain that, according to Kenpo principles, I was doing the roundhouse kick incorrectly. I told him I was studying Karate, but he still insisted that the kick was wrong. I didn't point out that it was good enough to score on him twice, unanswered. I'll spare everyone the story of another Kenpo brown belt 'teaching' me how to hold an arnis stick at an arnis camp at which I was an instructor. She even used Ed Parker's name in explaining to me what I was doing wrong. Let's just say that I, uh, disagreed with her analysis.

I could go on at great length. Every art has its share of poor performers and outright nutcases, but it somehow seems to be a requirement for all the Kenpo nutcases to track me down and show me their stuff. So, I have more Kenpo horror stories than I have from any other single art. (The ones above aren't even horror stories, in fact.) The point is that the comments made about the TMA people not knowing their art and its applications could be told about Kenpoists in other circumstances. Competent instructors know their material, know how to use it, and know its limits; but, not every instructor is competent. It sounds like Seabrook may have the kind of luck with Karateka that I've had with Kenpoists...a disproportionate number of bozos. That's how the bell curve works.

I don't think most TMA floks will believe they need something like the WKKA program. I don't think most of them think they have a deficiency in this area. In grappling or weapons, maybe, but not here. That doesn't mean they're right...but in all likelihood they have in their art the tools for effective self-defense, whether they train it well or not.

 

[Flying Crane]

I remember being at a martial arts summer camp for Modern Arnis in Lansing, Michigan one summer. A Kenpo brown belt was telling Mr. Hartman and me about how great Kenpo was. She explained that, unlike in other arts, every move in Kenpo was scientifically designed for effectiveness and every move was understood and important. We asked her to demonstrate a form. She did. Afterward I asked her why she made a certain move (left arm is out from a punch, right arm goes beneath it with one finger pointing up, others bent, and rests alongside the tricep). She said, "I don't know; we just do it." She had memorized the spiel but obviously hadn't thought about it. In fact, I don't think the contradictiuon even registered for her. I knew one interpretation of the move from a Kung Fu teacher...who didn't regard it as a fighting technique.

At my first tournament I fought a slightly higher-ranked Kenpoist who had been studying longer than I had. I beat him 3-0 on two roundhouse kicks and a reverse punch. Afterwards he came up to me...to explain that, according to Kenpo principles, I was doing the roundhouse kick incorrectly. I told him I was studying Karate, but he still insisted that the kick was wrong. I didn't point out that it was good enough to score on him twice, unanswered. I'll spare everyone the story of another Kenpo brown belt 'teaching' me how to hold an arnis stick at an arnis camp at which I was an instructor. She even used Ed Parker's name in explaining to me what I was doing wrong. Let's just say that I, uh, disagreed with her analysis.

I could go on at great length. Every art has its share of poor performers and outright nutcases, but it somehow seems to be a requirement for all the Kenpo nutcases to track me down and show me their stuff. So, I have more Kenpo horror stories than I have from any other single art. (The ones above aren't even horror stories, in fact.) The point is that the comments made about the TMA people not knowing their art and its applications could be told about Kenpoists in other circumstances. Competent instructors know their material, know how to use it, and know its limits; but, not every instructor is competent. It sounds like Seabrook may have the kind of luck with Karateka that I've had with Kenpoists...a disproportionate number of bozos. That's how the bell curve works.

I don't think most TMA floks will believe they need something like the WKKA program. I don't think most of them think they have a deficiency in this area. In grappling or weapons, maybe, but not here. That doesn't mean they're right...but in all likelihood they have in their art the tools for effective self-defense, whether they train it well or not.

Well said, Sir. thank you for sharing your perspective and experiences.

 

[Ray]

...but it somehow seems to be a requirement for all the Kenpo nutcases to track me down and show me their stuff.

I very much look forward to meeting you, lol.

I'm not really a nutcase, but I agree that there are a whole bunch of flakes that escaped from the cerial box.

There really are some good kenpoists out there, I hope you get the chance to meet some, someday.

 

[clfsean]

I already have.


Jamie Seabrook

Well not really. You gave moves right out of a kata & made a few comments about how they were being shown out of kata, but not as application.

Anyway... I'm done.

 

[clfsean]

Saving the snipping but you said loads. Excellent!!!!

 

[Monadnock]

I dunno. I was hesitant to click the link in the first post in fear of having to see the price tag for learning how a couple of Americans are going to suppliment 1000's of years of Eastern martial arts tradition - in a day.

The whole things presupposes that people primarily study the martial arts for self defense. Of course, that IS what's selling. Most of it is crap, but that's what's selling.

Off to dream of saving my life with Twirling Wings....

 

[Seabrook]

I guess I am trying to keep the discussion centered more around the WKKA program, since that is the topic of the thread.

Good idea, brother.Jamie Seabrook

 

[Seabrook]

Well not really. You gave moves right out of a kata & made a few comments about how they were being shown out of kata, but not as application.

Anyway... I'm done.

No worries about our "disagreement" buddy. You are a fellow martial arts practitioner, and I highly respect you for that that.

God Bless you in your journey.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[arnisador]

There really are some good kenpoists out there, I hope you get the chance to meet some, someday.

Well, Mr. Conatser was kind enough to treat me to lunch one day and that was a 180 degree experience from what I had so often seen before. I'd love to have another chance to pick his brain. I've also had the opportunity to talk Kenpo with Kenpoists such as Bryson Ingram, who is sensible and skilled. But yes, for some reason, I've hit more than my fair share of the ones with unusual opinions.

My favorite Kenpo story has got to be the Kenpo instructor and his assistant who gave an impromptu Kenpo demonstration for us after a BJJ seminar one day. The instructor demonstrated a technique where you grab the right side of the head with the left hand and strike the left side of the head with your right elbow. You then slide your elbow off the face to get a scrape. That way, he said, you've hit him 7 times: Once when the elbow lands, once as it leaves, plus five strikes from the five fingertips on the left hand that's slapping/holding the head. Well, I wasn't sure that counting the left hand made much sense at all compared to the elbow to the face, so I wasn't surprised when his student challenged him. He said, however: "No, that's 8 strikes. You have to count the center of the palm of the left hand too." But this isn't the worst of it. They stood there and argued the point with one another, ignoring the rest of us and repeated requests to just continue with the demo., until people finally gave up and left.

Analysis is good. But, you can have too much of a good thing.

 

[Flying Crane]

My favorite Kenpo story has got to be the Kenpo instructor and his assistant who gave an impromptu Kenpo demonstration for us after a BJJ seminar one day. The instructor demonstrated a technique where you grab the right side of the head with the left hand and strike the left side of the head with your right elbow. You then slide your elbow off the face to get a scrape. That way, he said, you've hit him 7 times: Once when the elbow lands, once as it leaves, plus five strikes from the five fingertips on the left hand that's slapping/holding the head. Well, I wasn't sure that counting the left hand made much sense at all compared to the elbow to the face, so I wasn't surprised when his student challenged him. He said, however: "No, that's 8 strikes. You have to count the center of the palm of the left hand too." But this isn't the worst of it. They stood there and argued the point with one another, ignoring the rest of us and repeated requests to just continue with the demo., until people finally gave up and left.

Analysis is good. But, you can have too much of a good thing.

That is some funny stuff. I agree whole heartedly with your last statement.

 

[Seabrook]

I've also had the opportunity to talk Kenpo with Kenpoists such as Bryson Ingram, who is sensible and skilled. But yes, for some reason, I've hit more than my fair share of the ones with unusual opinions.

Bryson came to train under me at my school at then end of 2005. Things didn't work out put that's ok.

He now trains under Steve Stewart. How do you know him?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[arnisador]

How do you know him?

He also does Modern Arnis. I see him at the WMAA Camps (but of course, he doesn't see me! ).

 

[Kenpodoc]

My favorite Kenpo story has got to be the Kenpo instructor and his assistant who gave an impromptu Kenpo demonstration for us after a BJJ seminar one day. The instructor demonstrated a technique where you grab the right side of the head with the left hand and strike the left side of the head with your right elbow. You then slide your elbow off the face to get a scrape. That way, he said, you've hit him 7 times: Once when the elbow lands, once as it leaves, plus five strikes from the five fingertips on the left hand that's slapping/holding the head. Well, I wasn't sure that counting the left hand made much sense at all compared to the elbow to the face, so I wasn't surprised when his student challenged him. He said, however: "No, that's 8 strikes. You have to count the center of the palm of the left hand too." But this isn't the worst of it. They stood there and argued the point with one another, ignoring the rest of us and repeated requests to just continue with the demo., until people finally gave up and left.

Analysis is good. But, you can have too much of a good thing.

Obviously a flawed analysis. What about each of the Metacarpals contained within that palm and don't forget the added force of the Chi eminating from his elbow to his magic palm and the chi reflection back to his elbow.

Good story.

Jeff

 

[Kenpo17]

I think it is a great idea for the WKKA to be doing this for schools that would normally not teach Kenpo. I don't think it is potential for disaster, because I think that no matter what type of Martial Arts you take, you should always keep an opened mind and be willing to learn new things.

 

[hongkongfooey]

I think it is a great idea for the WKKA to be doing this for schools that would normally not teach Kenpo. I don't think it is potential for disaster, because I think that no matter what type of Martial Arts you take, you should always keep an opened mind and be willing to learn new things.

:disgust: I agree that one should be open to learning new things, but this is not one of them. If an instructor of a school that teaches another style, wishes to add Kenpo to his or her repertoire, then that teacher should seek out instruction at a qualified Kenpo school. Video training for rank and or certification is a money making scheme and nothing more. If you want to use a video to supplement classroom time, then have at it, no problems there. But to try to learn the system by video and then teach the poorly learned material is pure McDojo behavior. The next thing you know there will be people teaching the system that don't have a clue as to what they're doing, and awarding black belts to people that are as equally clueless. Oh wait, that is already going on. Kenpo is in bad shapeand this doesn't help.

:bs:

 

[Hand Sword]

Well, there goes my idea!

Seriously, just reading the title baffles me. I mean aren't almost of the MA's about self defense? How is this concept new?

 

[Kenpo17]

:disgust: I agree that one should be open to learning new things, but this is not one of them. If an instructor of a school that teaches another style, wishes to add Kenpo to his or her repertoire, then that teacher should seek out instruction at a qualified Kenpo school. Video training for rank and or certification is a money making scheme and nothing more. If you want to use a video to supplement classroom time, then have at it, no problems there. But to try to learn the system by video and then teach the poorly learned material is pure McDojo behavior. The next thing you know there will be people teaching the system that don't have a clue as to what they're doing, and awarding black belts to people that are as equally clueless. Oh wait, that is already going on. Kenpo is in bad shapeand this doesn't help.

:bs:

True, an instructor should be qualified to teach Kenpo, and I wasn't trying to say that an instructor should not be qualified, ofcourse he/she should be, I was saying that if the instructor feels comfortable enough and adapted enough to Kenpo, then there is no reason why he/she should not teach it. Plus, what is a qualified instructor anyway, by definition. Is there a definition? I would like to find out. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but someone needs to say it, not just to you, but in general.