New and old Katana
- Thread starter kip42
- Start date
Hi Kip.
I'll tackle the second part of your enquiry first. Katana with a true lineage are not 'cheap', in fact those with such a documented lineage are seldom ever for sale as they tend to stay in their family's hands.
The WWII blades you have heard of are termed gunto and altho' you might see a great many of them for sale that is because the majority of them are fakes. Even those that are not are generally quite poor as they were mass produced for the Japanese officer corps. Some of them were made with German steel and nearly all were not 'forged' in the traditional fashion. There have been a few that were genuine 'family' blades re-furnitured for war use but that well is probably long dry by now.
As to what is 'best' now, again there is no straight answer to that. It largely depends on what you want it for.
If you want to hack at tree branches in your garden pretending you are Zatoichi, then a Paul Chen Practical will do you well enough until it falls apart.
If you are looking for something rather better then be prepared to pay around £1000 or more for a decent live-blade. If you want something of real quality then you are looking at a much steeper price tag e.g. http://www.jidai.jp/shinken.asp
If you are seeking a good quality iaito to begin studying a Japanese Sword Art then I would heartily recommend a top end Tozando blade. I have used one of theirs for more than five years now and it is a wonderful sword.
I'll tackle the second part of your enquiry first. Katana with a true lineage are not 'cheap', in fact those with such a documented lineage are seldom ever for sale as they tend to stay in their family's hands.
The WWII blades you have heard of are termed gunto and altho' you might see a great many of them for sale that is because the majority of them are fakes. Even those that are not are generally quite poor as they were mass produced for the Japanese officer corps. Some of them were made with German steel and nearly all were not 'forged' in the traditional fashion. There have been a few that were genuine 'family' blades re-furnitured for war use but that well is probably long dry by now.
As to what is 'best' now, again there is no straight answer to that. It largely depends on what you want it for.
If you want to hack at tree branches in your garden pretending you are Zatoichi, then a Paul Chen Practical will do you well enough until it falls apart.
If you are looking for something rather better then be prepared to pay around £1000 or more for a decent live-blade. If you want something of real quality then you are looking at a much steeper price tag e.g. http://www.jidai.jp/shinken.asp
If you are seeking a good quality iaito to begin studying a Japanese Sword Art then I would heartily recommend a top end Tozando blade. I have used one of theirs for more than five years now and it is a wonderful sword.
oaktree
Master of Arts
I think the best is matter of opinion.
http://www.japanesesword.com/
http://www.jidai.jp/shinken.asp
There you go.
I would ask for certification,name of maker and signature on blade.
You are not going to find a cheap blade with ton of history. And it could be you buy a sword which never saw the light of battle. The cheaper the blade the more it is either 1.not real 2.or in bad shape.
It is seen bad to own an antique Japanese weapon because the blood on the weapon that supposely killed the people still lives on it and the belief the ghost will haunt you at least this is what I was told.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Kip, I'm going to be rather blunt here. You have a fanboy fascination, an adolescent adoration, little more than puppy love. The indications for this are that you are not taking on board anything that you have been told in previous threads, as these questions are basically the same as you have asked before.
From memory, last time you mentioned that you were starting in a Bujinkan school (two months ago), however your profile states "Beginner MMA". Once again, the advice that you should listen to is simple: Listen to your instructor. Stop trying to rush ahead, you have exactly zero need for anything that you have been asking for or about.
I have a student at present who asked me about hand-conditioning training. I told him to wait, as it will be a part of what I'm taking them through from January next year. He didn't wait. He is trying to put together hand-conditioning himself, and showed me after the last class that he was starting to develop callouses on his knuckles. He is doing it badly, injuring and damaging his hands unnecessarily, he doesn't know the proper, safe method of training it, he doesn't know the way to avoid such damage, and doesn't have the proper equipment to do it the way it should be done. So he was told (again!) to stop, and he told me "Oh, okay. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing then" (?!?!) "No, stop! You need to wait so you can do it properly".
Same goes for yourself. You have no need of a sword, you have no need of anything more than a bokken at present (if you have started training, that is.... your posts are rather contradictory there, starting three months ago stating you have two years of army combatives focussing on BJJ, then Combat Krav Maga, then your profile states MMA, and the mention of starting Bujinkan....), if you're really interested in these arts, get an instructor if you don't have one already, and listen to them! Because, frankly, you are in no position yet to even start asking questions like this, as you have no reference for us to go off. Okay?
FieldDiscipline
2nd Black Belt
I have been pondering for a while whether these swords are 'real'. Are these swords made in anywhere near the traditional way? Are they sharp/strong/flexible enough for use in real combat if you should be so inclined, or do you need to go to Jidai and spend the real money to get something practical?
Some of the high end Paul Chen stuff is okay to be honest; not as good as the 'real' thing of course but made competently enough (though their quality control is patchy).
The low end stuff is fine for what it is intended for i.e. introductory blades for people learning how to cut - no sense wrecking a £1000 live-blade as a novice after all
. Any sword used in a real fight (tho such a thing happening today boggles the mind) is going to get damaged or broken. Whether it is the former or the latter depends upon quality (and the skill of the swordsman naturally 
).
The low end stuff is fine for what it is intended for i.e. introductory blades for people learning how to cut - no sense wrecking a £1000 live-blade as a novice after all
. Any sword used in a real fight (tho such a thing happening today boggles the mind) is going to get damaged or broken. Whether it is the former or the latter depends upon quality (and the skill of the swordsman naturally ).Where do you anticipate using a katana "in combat" today? Or do you have inside information on the coming Zombie Apocalypse?
FieldDiscipline
2nd Black Belt
If it came down to that, I'm more of an assault rifle kind of person, but was interested to learn.
Tanaka
Purple Belt
Some people use swords in defense of their homes. Like the guy who used a sword to fatally wound robber in his garage.
bluewaveschool
2nd Black Belt
I'd love to have a real, high end blade. To display. I'd really rather have the kind of money laying around to throw away on a real blade, actually.
Purchase for what purpose? Cutting, kata, or display? The answer will be different depending upon your intended purpose.
Unless you have a great deal of disposable wealth, authentic blades will not be cheap.
Daniel
I don't know; that JHU med student used a katana to mount a successful home defense a few months back.http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/johns_hopkins_student_from_nj_1.html
Not sure that that counts as "in combat" but certainly does count as practical use.
Regarding the zombies, remember, swords never run out of ammunition.
Daniel
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
Yeah I read about that. When the cops broke down the door, he was reportedly still shouting 'Repent! Repent!'.
Bizarre.
FieldDiscipline
2nd Black Belt
A convincing argument that.
No, not combat. That is a landlord tenant dispute. Demons squatting in his mother's property (her body) without the owner' express permission. Swords are not an accepted nor effective means of evicting such squatters.
Daniel
oaktree
Master of Arts
If he used Chicken blood he could have got rid of the ghost.
There are special rituals that involved using a sword to capture demons but that is a religious setting interesting to say the least.
Langenschwert
Master Black Belt
Hi Kip,
Your best bet is to train really hard in whatever art you study and don't worry about what sword to buy until your instructor says it's time. He'll give you better advice than any of us here. The general rule of sword arts is get the best sword you can afford. It is better to wait a year or more and save up for a good one than buy an inferior one and have to upgrade, since that will cost you more in the long run.
Judging from your previous posts, I think you have a bit of an infatuation with the Japanese sword, and that can be a good thing. That initial excitement will keep you going when the training gets tough or frustrating. However, there's nothing magical about the japanese sword or kenjutsu. It's just another style of fencing. I'm glad that it appeals to you as it does to me. Like any other art, you can spend the rest of your life getting it right. So get a start on the "spending the rest of your life getting it right" part rather than fixating on gear.
Best regards,
-Mark
Your best bet is to train really hard in whatever art you study and don't worry about what sword to buy until your instructor says it's time. He'll give you better advice than any of us here. The general rule of sword arts is get the best sword you can afford. It is better to wait a year or more and save up for a good one than buy an inferior one and have to upgrade, since that will cost you more in the long run.
Judging from your previous posts, I think you have a bit of an infatuation with the Japanese sword, and that can be a good thing. That initial excitement will keep you going when the training gets tough or frustrating. However, there's nothing magical about the japanese sword or kenjutsu. It's just another style of fencing. I'm glad that it appeals to you as it does to me. Like any other art, you can spend the rest of your life getting it right. So get a start on the "spending the rest of your life getting it right" part rather than fixating on gear.
Best regards,
-Mark
Is the quality of modern swords better, equal, or less than that of the old ones? I want to get the toughest, highest quality, sword without paying extra for a fancy design are carvings. I want it to be sharp and durable.
Modern steel is most definitely superior to what would have been attainable in the middle ages or even the early twentieth century. Most of what you pay for is the forging method. A sword made using modern steel and a traditional forging method is a highly labor intensive process that not just anyone can do. You could make the handle out of a solid block of unadorned wood and the guard from a plain disc of steel and the cost would still be fairly high. My shinken was about eighteen hundred dollars. You can spend a lot more if you try just slightly.
If you want something that isn't a wall hangar and isn't a practice blade, be prepared to lay out some serious money. Frankly, I think you'd be better served by attending class training. Save these questions for your sensei, as it is fairly clear from your posts that you are not at a stage where consideration of a shinken is a factor.
Daniel
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