Need some help

[antny825]

many schools charge that much for lessons. mine charges $125.

trying to put a child that young in a leadership program is a red flag, though. so is the 'false scarcity' close they're trying on you by telling you about a 2007 rate increase.

honestly, you're being charged a legitimate amount for attending a professional program. and if you can afford it, a professional program is worth that and more.

now, the question remains if that program is, in fact, professional.

what's the name of the school and organization? someone on here will recognize the name.

The school is Ocasios True Martial Arts

 

[antny825]

I would like to thank all for the advice, I will surely be looking for a new school, I am under contract until mid March

 

[jks9199]

For your four year old son? No, don't sign up for all of that. You're definitely being ripped off. A four year old has a typical short attention span and a leadership package at this point will not make much difference. Keep to a basic tuition for the first few months. The interest of your son might change, so try for month-to-month basis rather than a yearly contract. I strongly suggest you look elsewhere for a different school.

- Ceicei

Yep -- gotta agree. This "deal" sounds like it's designed to line the school owner's pockets. A 4 year old is almost certainly not going to be a credible candidate for any "leadership" program... MAYBE, just maybe at 14.

Add a hard sell approach...

My personal opinion -- run, don't walk, for another activity or at least another school for your kid.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Wow, you are being taken for a ride financially.
According to NAPMA, the average monthly fee is around $65 per month. In my opinion, you should not pay more than $70 per month.

Funny, last I checked with NAPMA, the average was $120. One of us needs to recheck his figures (and I'm open to the idea that I'm the one that needs to).

Everything else is dead on target. Do your research, check things out. Try every intro program within reasonable driving distance.

At the end of the day, you may find that everything less expensive is of lower quality and that you're actually in a good space. Or you may find the perfect match for your family at $45 a month.

Slightly off topic, there's kind of a schism in the price structures. People appear to fall in the low 100s for monthly tuition, or in the 50-60 dollar range. Rather than a bell curve, the graph looks like a camel. For reference, 50-60 a month was average tuition in the 70s.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

Funny, last I checked with NAPMA, the average was $120. One of us needs to recheck his figures (and I'm open to the idea that I'm the one that needs to).

"The average tuition in the United States is $65 a month, says Rob Colasanti, vice president of NAPMA. "

I got that above quote from the following article:
http://familyfun.go.com/parenting/learn/activities/feature/famf28martialarts/famf28martialarts2.html

That is from Family Fun Magazine, which is hosted by Disney. It took me a lot of digging to find that article, but you made me wonder if I was remembering what I had read wrong.

That number seems to ring true to my area as well.

AoG

 

[still learning]

Hello, TRY JUDO! For small kids (young ones) JUDO is one of the best places to start learning self-defense.

They will learn how to fall,thumble,roll, learn basic JUDO throws,hands on contact (learn faster here)!

For most martial arts--JUDO is a GREAT thing to add to your martial art classes or training!

FIND A JUDO CLASS IN YOUR AREA!!!! You will be glad you did...OH as a parent you should sign up too...since you are there! .....Aloha

 

[bcbernam777]

Hello, TRY JUDO! For small kids (young ones) JUDO is one of the best places to start learning self-defense.

They will learn how to fall,thumble,roll, learn basic JUDO throws,hands on contact (learn faster here)!

For most martial arts--JUDO is a GREAT thing to add to your martial art classes or training!

FIND A JUDO CLASS IN YOUR AREA!!!! You will be glad you did...OH as a parent you should sign up too...since you are there! .....Aloha

Actually thats a great idea

 

[ArmorOfGod]

Hello, TRY JUDO! For small kids (young ones) JUDO is one of the best places to start learning self-defense.

For most martial arts--JUDO is a GREAT thing to add to your martial art classes or training!

FIND A JUDO CLASS IN YOUR AREA!!!! You will be glad you did...OH as a parent you should sign up too...since you are there! .....Aloha

I think his problems came from paying too much, not the style itself.
A judo school can be as expensive as any other martial art school, so judo has nothing to do with this conversation.

AoG

 

[Tez3]

I think his problems came from paying too much, not the style itself.
A judo school can be as expensive as any other martial art school, so judo has nothing to do with this conversation.

AoG

I think Still Learning likes Judo! We teach our children basic Judo and I hate the kids when they do it! It's so easy for them, they throw themselves down and it makes my bones creak watching!
Weapons for 4 year olds is not a good idea, we teach the older children the basics but not the tots. We do have some very soft foam nunchukus and swords which as a very special treat every so often the 4-7 years get to do but it's not part of the lessons for them. We don't ask anyone to buy weapons either, if they want to we will get them as cheap as we can for them but mostly we use the club ones.

 

[Grenadier]

I'm assuming that your current rate is based on two classes a week?

If you're in an affluent community, then $129 / month isn't really out of the ordinary.

However, what gets my eyebrow raised, is that they're pushing your 4 year old son to enter the leadership program. 4 years old is about the minimum age in which people should be training in martial arts, period, and that they shouldn't be trying to overtrain, since their bodies are at a critical stage in development.

Also, as the others have pointed out, the attention span of such young children isn't nearly that of their older counterparts.

Now, assuming that the school is teaching good quality martial arts, at this time, I'd simply stay with the basic program, until your child is older. Any school owner should be more than happy to upgrade a contract.

 

[matt.m]

Welcome to MT. First of all, I am not so much worried about the prices/packages etc. etc. I see this kind of thing from people at other schools. Not mine, but others. It seems common, however.....your child is 4. That is a flag for me. TKD should be about the hand and eye coordination etc. Learning poomse and the other stuff is important because it reinforces memorization.

Just my .02

 

[Last Fearner]

Hello, TRY JUDO! For small kids (young ones) JUDO is one of the best places to start learning self-defense.

FIND A JUDO CLASS IN YOUR AREA!!!! You will be glad you did...

Interesting that you suggested "judo!"

I found the following here:
http://www.martial-arts-network.com/guests.php?act=viewarchive&m=5&y=2005

Guest : Anthony Sanchez
Comments: Ocasios True Martial Arts, Black Belt Leadership Acadamy. Haverhill, Ma. Come check us out, School taught by Master Herman Ocasio, 7th Dan. American Kenpo,Ju Jitsu, Muy Tai, Judo, Boxing. This is an Eclectic style for the street.
Haverhill, Ma USA - Saturday, May 21, 2005 at 11:22:28 am (EST)

So, I guess he is already learning "judo." The term I don't care for is "Eclectic." I never have liked that word when associated with the Martial Art!

I see by a web search that "Master Herman Ocasio" has more than one school, possibly even a couple in Haverhill. It also appears that there are many others to choose from, so this must be a large community.

I am never one to agree with judging a book by its cover, or a Martial Art school by its prices. I will usually charge more than any other instructor in my area because, quite frankly, I am worth more (sorry for the lack of humility here to make a point). I have been teaching longer, have more authentic credentials for which I have invested a great deal to achieve, I am a full time instructor who relies on my school's income, and, most importantly, I have more to offer students in my area.

The only question you need to ask yourself is, "do you feel you are getting your money's worth from this instructor?" In other words, "Is the price of the training worth it to you, for what your son is getting, and can you afford it?

If you feel the instructor is excellent, the school is a good one, and your son is benefiting from the classes, then nothing else matters. You don't have to sign him up for "leadership training," nor early weapons. If the additional gear includes sparring gear and other things, you should have a choice to buy or not. If it is a bit too expensive for your budget, ask if you can purchase portions of the gear as needed, or if you can buy elsewhere if they don't offer a discount.

Contracts are not a "red flag" unless you believe the school is not worth a long term investment. Children can be told what a parent expects of them. If this is an "optional hobby" that you are willing to let your son choose, then don't sign a contract because children change their minds often, and want to quit when training gets tough. Do you have problems with making commitments for yourself and your son? Whose choice is this? If it is your son's, then let him decide. If it is yours, then do not be concerned if a good quality instructor expects a commitment for a year at a fixed price that is commensurate with his knowledge, skill and ability to teach.

As for the "average" rate of tuition in the U.S., I would just say that the "average" instructor in the U.S. (or anywhere else for that matter) isn't worth $10.00 per month, yet they charge $50 - $60. So, statistics can be misleading. Eliminating all of the "McDojos" and "McDojangs" out there, I wonder what the "average" tuition is among the quality instructors.

Finding the cheapest is not necessarily the best, but you might get lucky and find one of those rare gems that don't live off their school's income, yet they are a pretty good teacher. If this "Master Ocasio's" rank, credentials, and background check out as legit, and the product of his instruction (your son as well as other high ranks at his schools) are what you are looking for, then you only need to make a decision to commit to a good instructor.

I agree with the others that "leadership training" and weapons is a bit much for a young child, but not because of the price, but you must have the final choice if you elect not to place your son in this extra program. I don't fault the instructor for offering it, or charging whatever price he feels his classes are worth.

That's my opinion
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Cirdan]

Interesting that you suggested "judo!"
I am never one to agree with judging a book by its cover, or a Martial Art school by its prices. I will usually charge more than any other instructor in my area because, quite frankly, I am worth more (sorry for the lack of humility here to make a point). I have been teaching longer, have more authentic credentials for which I have invested a great deal to achieve, I am a full time instructor who relies on my school's income, and, most importantly, I have more to offer students in my area.

I hope this is not how you advertise your school. Seeing something like this, I`d avoid it like I would a rabid grizzly bear on steroids.
With all respect.

 

[Last Fearner]

I hope this is not how you advertise your school. Seeing something like this, I`d avoid it like I would a rabid grizzly bear on steroids.
With all respect.

Actually, I have used many different methods of successfully advertising my schools, and myself as an instructor. I don't usually state my credentials up-front as boldly as I did in my previous post, but the point is still valid.

When I was first a student, I did not know any better as to what to seek in a school or instructor (not unlike the many beginners who come here to MT and ask questions about this very issue). As I trained longer, I began to know what qualities I valued in a teacher, how they pursued their own education, and how they treated their students.

When I decided to become an instructor, I placed the same high standards on myself to become the kind of teacher that I had been looking for, and who I believe other students would want to seek out. I took pride in researching the material thoroughly, learning from the top sources in my field, and practicing my skills so that I could demonstrate and perform to a level of which my students would respect as far as my personal efforts, abilities, and dedication were concerned. I do my best to be honest with my students, and provide them with a solid base, and a well-structured curriculum from white to Black, and beyond.

I have given extra effort to travel, attend seminars, participate in activities, and pay for "proper" credentials and certification to verify that all which I claim to have done and learned is legitimate and not made up off the top of my head. I offer my students, not only my years of personal sacrifice and experience, but I give them connection to Grandmasters who are well above my level and authority. Thus, if I begin to stagnate or slack off, my students are not stuck beneath me, but have the opportunity to connect and continue their training with those who are my seniors. Their ladder reaches to 9th Dan the same as mine, and they don't have to go through me to get it if I fail them.

With modesty aside, for the moment, I have worked hard to do the things that I felt were right, honest, and beneficial to myself, and my students. I have watched many other "instructors" come and go in my area over the past three decades, and most of them have not had the pride in themselves, nor the motivation, dedication, perseverance and integrity to get the proper training so they could provide these things for their students. They have settled for "earning a Black Belt" (if even that), hanging out their shingle, and taking some unsuspecting students for a ride for a few years. They pop up all the time at the college, the YMCA, the health clubs, and charge $25.00 - $50.00 with no contracts, no commitments, and a lot of smooth talk - - then, they are gone.

I am not like that, and I truly believe that is a good thing. Therefore, I have no qualms about telling my customers the difference between me and them, and charging a higher price than other instructors, just so long as I am honest, and give my students their money's worth.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[kingkong89]

First Welocme And Second Yes You Are Being Charged Way To Much For You And Deffinatly Your Sons Lessons, If They Ask You To Pay For Everything Such As Weapons And Gear That Your Son May Naver Use That Is A Good Way To Tell They Are Trying To Get More Money Then You Need To Pay, My Advice Is Find A Dojo That Does Not Care That Much About Money And Worry More About Teaching You And Your Son, I Have Been In Martial Arts For 10 Great Years With A Great Sensei And Have Been Able To Enjoy Myself Nand Not Worry About Paying To Much. Good Luck And I Hope You Can Find A Better Dojo

 

[matt.m]

that is crazy for a 4yr old and no weapons training either. Best of luck in your search and welcome to the board.

 

[pstarr]

WAY too much money for a four-year old. And WEAPONS???? Nah... You're being robbed.

 

[gkygrl]

You've received a lot of good advice in this thread. I am new to martial arts myself but did a ton of research (including coming to this board and reading and learning).

Sounds like a McDojo to me -- as some others have pointed out. Your little boy is so young -- spending so much on him and his "weapons" (red flag) does not seem appropriate.

I am sure you can find a Dojang that feels more like home.

Best of luck!

 

[7starmarc]

While I don't necessarily disagree with anything posted already -- you're instinct is probably your best guide -- I do want to pose a few other thoughts.

First, $129 per month, as others have said, may not be too much for a quality school, depending on your community. Probably the biggest issue I would have is the "lock in" push. It might not be a marketing scheme (many businesses know they are going to have to increase rates because of elevating costs, but want to reward previous customers for loyalty)... but there's a decent chance it is, as well.

"Leadership" programs do not necessarily exclude young children. It depends on the nature of the Leadership program. In the school I attend, it simply means access to additional class sessions and some material that they will eventually learn if they continue to train towards their black belt. There are some 4 year olds that can handle the extra class time and material, there are others who can't. It's a judgement call by the parents. As to the initiation fee for the Leadership program, it's another judgement call based on the overall value you feel you are receiving.

Belt progression is a funny thing. It really depends on the tradition of the art involved as to how much of a break "easy" belt progression is. Some styles might find it sacriledge to have easy progression even in the basic ranks. Others might have a much more lax approach. One question I might have is whether or not these belt levels are honored or backed by a larger organization (national or international). If they are, why worry? Obviously the instructor has the credentials to grant legitimate ranks in his style. Another thing you can do is check out the advanced level classes, or have a friend more familiar with martial arts check them out. Do the advanced students seem to know their stuff? Or has the easy progression diluted the skill set? "Easy" progression has its uses in some MA instructors philosophies, and not all of those uses involve separating you from your hard earned money. It is, as mentioned by others, a potential red flag.

One piece of value that only you can judge is the quality of the instructors, particularly as they relate to teaching younger students. A good instructor for this age group can be very valuable to the development of not only good skills, but a healthy attitude and a life-long love of the martial arts. I was sorry to see one our instructors move on for that reason, he was great with the younger students.

As to the weapons, at 4, it may seem a bit early, but it really depends on the child and what they are doing with the weapons in class. I have a son, coming up on 4 years old in June, and he has already gravitated to many play weapons -- I think he owns about 5 or 6 play swords (if you include lightsabers). I have tried to get him to respect even these as he should a real weapon, most of the time with some success. Most of the time, he is very appropriate with his swords. I have little doubt that he would be able to handle the basic level weapons instruction we receive at my school at a very young age, particularly in the context of a structured class. After all, he already plays Miteball (T-ball for 3 1/2 to 4 year olds) and handles a bat appropriately and effectively.

All in all, from what you have said, yes there are a number of potential red flags. What I see lacking is the complete context of the information you have provided, which may shed more light on the situation.

Checking out their website (http://www.ocasiostruemartialarts.com/welcome.html), I'm not quite sure what to think. I am often wary of schools that claim such a multitude of stylistic influences

"Kenpo Karate, Ju Jitsu, Shaolin Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Kickboxing, boxing, Kali/Escrima, Muay Thai, Jeet Kune Do are just a few of the arts that have influenced our dynamic curriculum",

but it's hard to say. This would also mean that he's probably not backed by any larger governing or certifying body (as I talked about the belt discussion). As to his qualifications, I have no idea what an "Apprentice Master Instructor" is, or what he claims to have his "4th degree Black Belt" in. Having said that, in fairness, the school I attend has very little in terms of specifics on style or lineage on the (rather generic) website. But, if one visits the school, one will easily obtain specific information regarding lineage, certifications, and style.

If there are specific results that you are looking for, speak to the parents of other children in the program, and to the older students. If the results they've gotten are the ones you're looking for, that's probably as much assurance as you can get. If specific training in a traditional, recognized art is what you are looking for, this might not be the school for you or your son. The price point depends on what you can and are willing to afford.