Need more advice in cane fight practice

JowGaWolf

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I am thinking about in close quarter, it's better to lose the cane and start using knee and elbows.
It totally depends on the person holding the stick and who will pick it up after you throw it down. Because of how I train with the staff I know that I'm not likely to throw the stick down. I have a lot more options to go through before that is a decision.

Everyone is different and has different knowledge and skill sets for close range fighting and grappling. If you are going to throw it down the cane then you need to think about the best way to do it. Also think about what to do if your attacker picks up the cane you just threw down.
 

JowGaWolf

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From rushing, I know everything is half A$$ as I cannot concentrate in body movement or do anything precise.
I don't think it looks like that. When I watch the video I thought to myself that you have a lot going on.. Maybe too much. Maybe focus on doing just 2 or 3 things then build on top of that. Like right now you are going at a fast pace in terms of things you are implementing.

You don't look like an easy target so that's good. Hopefully that will last a long time.
 

Dirty Dog

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Just let it go, don't try to pick a fight. Put me on ignore. PLEASE. Don't you have better things to do?
Or, since it seems important to you, YOU could put HIM on ignore.
To Dirty dog:
Are you the moderator? You gave thumbs up to his insult against me. I know you agree with him. But at the same time you ARE the moderator. Are you suppose to maintain a friendly environment on this forum regardless of your own opinion. It is him that started the insult from day one. I really too busy to argue. There is a difference between disagreement vs down right INSULT.
What insult? You're doing exactly what he describes. If you don't want to interact with him, ignore him. Pretty simple.
 

Oily Dragon

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Sorry to offend you, I don't mean to. I thought it is at least better to insult the particular person to their face. I thought that's the way not to direct confrontation.
None taken.

"fancy technique" is a common refrain from people with little or no CMA training. When I ask "please name the fancy techniques", 10 times out of 10 they can't name a single actual technique name from any actual system, just some abstract concept, leading me to believe they are arguing third hand knowledge from their sphincter.

Even Joe Rogan has seen the light on this one. It's only "fancy" til you see it work, then it's not so fancy.

This is what real fancy stick work looks like. Totally unnecessary in combat, the high toss and cartwheel catch. If you try this in a real fight, you're probably gonna die.

 

Wing Woo Gar

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This is accurate. It's not a horrible book but it's not really good either. And it's not really about sword-vs-sword, or even sword-vs-weapon, per se. It's kinda more about sword-vs-home-invader.



Thank you.


Now-days, my sword study focuses mostly on 19th Century U.S./European military saber and cutlass. I've entered into a one-sided bro-mance with Tuohy (being that he's dead and all). ;)

I keep meaning to do more work in la Verdadera Destreza and Meyer's Dusak, but just haven't forced myself to set aside the time for it.

I do like both 19th C. European dueling saber and the earlier Cut-and-Thrust single-handed sword methods because they both track really well onto Bowie Knife.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
When I reread this I said dammit! You even like the same swords I like. Too bad for me I guess. CMA is my whole deal but I have some strange feeling I would really dig training Sabre.
 
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A

Alan0354

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I think you wouldn't get such a hard time if you just state that "this is the what you want to learn and they way you want to learn it." I think that is something everyone understand

You don't "get into trouble" until you start talking about what's Fancy and what doesn't work. And often times is about stuff that other people actually use in sparring. It's like someone saying in the chat that Long Fist punching techniques don't work. Anyone that says that will get a lecture from me, because it's something that I use with ease so I know it works.

I also think you'll be ok if you say that some techniques work for you and some do not. That's better than just saying "that the technique is crap just because it doesn't work for you." But don't invalidate a technique or system just because it doesn't work for you or fit your preference.
OK.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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I've been arguing for years that the "traditional" karate-style two-step blocks (High, Middle, and Low) are actually misunderstood. The first step where you "chamber" the block isn't a chamber, it's the block (well, an inside parry, anyway). The second part, the hard "block" part is actually a ripost (counter-strike) with a backfist. So someone punches at your face and you open-palm parry the punch and then backfist with the same hand.

I first realized it when I was reading Jack Dempsey's Championship Fighting boxing manual. The technique is seen in plenty of other bare knuckle boxing material but Dempsey liked (taught) to bring your fists up and out, leaving a pretty clear path to your face between them. This baits the other person into punching at your face and you know it's coming. You swat it away and ripost with a backfist. It works super sweet. You just have to pay attention to someone who doesn't take the bait and wants to throw body blows and rib shots. :D

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Lots of notes you can play in this song. I have several that I use that unskilled eyes would not define as block or strike outside of the application they experienced. To me, these things are neither and both, they are motion, they are dependent on whole body engagement to be useful. Perhaps this is why he thinks they dont work.
 

wab25

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I am thinking about in close quarter, it's better to lose the cane and start using knee and elbows. Holding onto the cane will hinder more than help.
Hanbo would be a good art to look at for the close quarters part. Its all about using the hanbo as a lever. They have many moves for if the other guy grabs your hanbo, how you can use their grip against them for joint lock, take down, choke or off balance. They also use more of the stick than just the ends... which is useful when the other guy closes distance. Yes, one of their techniques is to let go of the hanbo and use your hands... but there is a lot in between.

They also have different ways of striking and thrusting, that I have found very useful... especially the closer the other guy gets.


 

Dirty Dog

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Sorry to offend you, I don't mean to. I thought it is at least better to insult the particular person to their face. I thought that's the way not to direct confrontation.
Wait, what? You think insulting someone to their face is a way to avoid confrontation?
That seems a very...confusing...view. In my experience, that is one of the most common ways to incite a confrontation.
 

Dirty Dog

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I've been arguing for years that the "traditional" karate-style two-step blocks (High, Middle, and Low) are actually misunderstood. The first step where you "chamber" the block isn't a chamber, it's the block (well, an inside parry, anyway). The second part, the hard "block" part is actually a ripost (counter-strike) with a backfist. So someone punches at your face and you open-palm parry the punch and then backfist with the same hand.
I've taught students for years that a movement is just a movement. We give them names to aid in teaching, but the drawback to that practice is that people start to think the name defines the purpose.
A movement can be a chamber, a block, a strike, a grapple... it just depends on the circumstances.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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I've taught students for years that a movement is just a movement. We give them names to aid in teaching, but the drawback to that practice is that people start to think the name defines the purpose.
A movement can be a chamber, a block, a strike, a grapple... it just depends on the circumstances.
Yes. This.
 

Rich Parsons

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I think you wouldn't get such a hard time if you just state that "this is the what you want to learn and they way you want to learn it." I think that is something everyone understand

You don't "get into trouble" until you start talking about what's Fancy and what doesn't work. And often times is about stuff that other people actually use in sparring. It's like someone saying in the chat that Long Fist punching techniques don't work. Anyone that says that will get a lecture from me, because it's something that I use with ease so I know it works.

I also think you'll be ok if you say that some techniques work for you and some do not. That's better than just saying "that the technique is crap just because it doesn't work for you." But don't invalidate a technique or system just because it doesn't work for you or fit your preference.

Some tell me that one cannot spar close quarters with a stick / cane either.
That is my preferred range.
And if told it is impossible I reply that it is the area I prefer and I don't use anything fancy other than proper body mechanics. :D
 

lklawson

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Just let it go, don't try to pick a fight. Put me on ignore. PLEASE. Don't you have better things to do?
Why would I put you on ignore? You don't make me angry and I don't dislike you. You just keep writing things that are demonstrably inaccurate. I'm sorry that you don't like being corrected when you write things that are just flat wrong but you seem like a grown up and can probably figure out how to admit when you are wrong.
 

JowGaWolf

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Some tell me that one cannot spar close quarters with a stick / cane either.
That is my preferred range.
And if told it is impossible I reply that it is the area I prefer and I don't use anything fancy other than proper body mechanics. :D
I'm still sitting here trying to figure out how to respond to it lol. The only thing I can think is that I'm going to use this as a template for the next time someone says I should do MMA lol.
 

drop bear

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I am thinking about in close quarter, it's better to lose the cane and start using knee and elbows. Holding onto the cane will hinder more than help

You can thai grapple, collar tie and underhook with a stick in your hand.

You can even theoretically use it then for leverage.

You could probably hit a double or single leg with a stick.
 

JowGaWolf

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You can even theoretically use it then for leverage.
Close range fighting with a staff is all about leverage and using the staff to pry your attacker off you. I most cases the strike and the leverage work is all the same movement. Once you get your attacker off you, the you can increase distance and continue to hit them with the staff. But you have to know the basics swings for the staff, and you have to use 2 hands. There's now way to create the leverage without the other hand assisting. There's no way to hook the staff around limbs without using 2 hands.

Using only one hand at this range doesn't provide the stability. It would be like trying to sew the end of a flag blowing in the wind with one hand. You only need to about 4 or 5 inches of staff at the end of your grip to create a good hook. The hook that I'm referring too is not the hook of a cane. The hook that I'm referring to is the hook that's is created when you grab the staff.

When we leave a few inches at the end of our grip, it creates a hook. Think of this man's arm as the cane and that small of the stick has the handle / hook. The leverage will come from the larger end of stick. In this picture there's no way for him to create it unless he pulls or pushes on the longer end of the stick. The only way he can do that is to use the other hand.

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When he uses 2 hands, he'll be able to push or pull from either end of the stick. Most times you'll have the opportunity to push and pull at the same time. Being able to slide the hands along the stick would be critical because it's the only way to adjust the hands without fully releasing the stick. This means that two hands are always stabilizing the stick /staff which is great for when there is a lot of heavy contact, like what you'll get when in grappling range. Sliding the hand also allows you adjust the leverage so that it's easier for you to control the staff and harder for your opponent.

Even if a person doesn't have interest in using a stick or staff, it's a fun thing to experience how all of it works.
 

drop bear

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Close range fighting with a staff is all about leverage and using the staff to pry your attacker off you. I most cases the strike and the leverage work is all the same movement. Once you get your attacker off you, the you can increase distance and continue to hit them with the staff. But you have to know the basics swings for the staff, and you have to use 2 hands. There's now way to create the leverage without the other hand assisting. There's no way to hook the staff around limbs without using 2 hands.

Using only one hand at this range doesn't provide the stability. It would be like trying to sew the end of a flag blowing in the wind with one hand. You only need to about 4 or 5 inches of staff at the end of your grip to create a good hook. The hook that I'm referring too is not the hook of a cane. The hook that I'm referring to is the hook that's is created when you grab the staff.

When we leave a few inches at the end of our grip, it creates a hook. Think of this man's arm as the cane and that small of the stick has the handle / hook. The leverage will come from the larger end of stick. In this picture there's no way for him to create it unless he pulls or pushes on the longer end of the stick. The only way he can do that is to use the other hand.

View attachment 27949

When he uses 2 hands, he'll be able to push or pull from either end of the stick. Most times you'll have the opportunity to push and pull at the same time. Being able to slide the hands along the stick would be critical because it's the only way to adjust the hands without fully releasing the stick. This means that two hands are always stabilizing the stick /staff which is great for when there is a lot of heavy contact, like what you'll get when in grappling range. Sliding the hand also allows you adjust the leverage so that it's easier for you to control the staff and harder for your opponent.

Even if a person doesn't have interest in using a stick or staff, it's a fun thing to experience how all of it works.

Yeah. But I am talking the most simple concepts for using a stick if someone gets to close.

Which should basically be thai grapple and throw knees and elbows.
 

Blindside

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Yeah. But I am talking the most simple concepts for using a stick if someone gets to close.

Which should basically be thai grapple and throw knees and elbows.
Usually if one person has a stick/cane and you get to close quarters it doesn't get that close as at least one hand of each person is occupied on the weapon.
 

JowGaWolf

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Yeah. But I am talking the most simple concepts for using a stick if someone gets to close.

Which should basically be thai grapple and throw knees and elbows.
The things I was speaking about are simple concepts. If you are picturing behind the neck and complex locks with a stick then you are picturing the wrong things. If I have a stick close range then you won't get the clinch. You won't get the knees. Especially if the knees come after the clinch.
This is something I would love to give you the experience of trying to deal with. If your clinch is under the stick then I can hit you in the face and head with the stick using full force. If it's under your clinch then your ribs are exposed. Knees won't get past the stick at all. If your clinch is above the stick. If a knee comes up then I just need to push the staff downward.

When you use two hands to hold on me the you don't have anything interfering with the stick so. I only need to keep my structure for strikes an turning/ twisting. Now if you can break my structure then you'll have a chance to pull it off. You also have a good chance to pull it off if the person doesn't know how to use the stick with grappling.
 
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drop bear

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Usually if one person has a stick/cane and you get to close quarters it doesn't get that close as at least one hand of each person is occupied on the weapon.

I was thinking unarmed vs stick and them just rushing eating shots and clinching.
 
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