Naihanchi.

[DKI Girl]

Hello Everyone....Just got back from vacation and am catching up on the Naihanchi Thread.

Just to let everyone know that I am a "color by number" type or person. My opinion is that it is a whole lot easier talking with someone about Stomach 9 rather than "an area on the neck". Especially when we are "talking" via email. Makes things alot more understandable when you can't put your hands on each other and show you what they are talking about.

Dave,

I would still be interested in your interpretations for Naihanchi....I have a pretty good imagination if you can write them out. I know that there are many applications for each technique, but just trying to start things out.

Thanks all.

dkigirl

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Just to let everyone know that I am a "color by number" type or person. My opinion is that it is a whole lot easier talking with someone about Stomach 9 rather than "an area on the neck". Especially when we are "talking" via email. Makes things alot more understandable when you can't put your hands on each other and show you what they are talking about.

I am not sure why it is easier to talk about St. 9 or any other point on the neck unless you are hitting with the tip of one finger in the exact spot.
Why not just say "hit them on the neck just below the ear"...........how complicated is that to understand.
Judging from the videos on your website you and the rest of those folks aren't even getting close to St. 9.
(BTW St. 9 is located at the level of the Adams apple on the anterior border of the sternocleidomastoid muscle..............in simple terms on either side of the Adams Apple)

From what I can see on your videos you are "whacking" about five different "points"..............and while the person is standing relatively still I might add.
Try it on someone that is actually trying to attack or at the very least pretends to attack............hell I can teach a monkey how to whack someone on the neck that is standing still and knock them out.

The whole "color by numbers kyusho" thing is the blind leading the blind.

 

[DKI Girl]

1. I am not going to ask someone that I know to physically attack me just so I can go full out on my point training and video tape it to show everyone. I want to train with them again and just know how the point works is fine with me. Giving it a light tap works then I know it will work with adrenaline behind it.

2. Since you went out to my website....I think that you need to take a closer look......in NONE of my clips do I even intend to attack ST 9. I don't like using that particular point. I go for TW 17, LI 18, GB 20 and others that I know will work for me.

dkigirl

 

[Matt Stone]

I think the point that RyuShiKan is trying to make is that striking a vital point while the opponent is relatively cooperative (i.e. standing still, moving slowly, etc.) is far easier than when the same individual is swinging at at least 75% of full power...

The style I have trained in for the last 16 - 17 years makes extensive use of vital point striking. However, I must admit, that we rarely go "all out" and do focused, directed work at precision striking at "combat speed."

While training with RyuShiKan, I have seen first hand the difference between striking at a point at maybe 1/4 speed, and having to up that twice again...

Definitely more difficult.

Just my devalued 2 yen...

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Kinda like having your little leaguer pitch to you and you hit the crap out of the ball and have Randy Johnson pitch to ya. My 4 year old son can hit points if I stand there and say hit that point and that point. As I said in a earlier in this thread. Oyata was knocking guys out at full speed while they wore kendo gear. Don't see to many DKI people doing that.
Bob :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

I think the point that RyuShiKan is trying to make is that striking a vital point while the opponent is relatively cooperative (i.e. standing still, moving slowly, etc.) is far easier than when the same individual is swinging at at least 75% of full power...

Yiliquan1,

That is exactly the point I was trying to make.
If you don't train with even a little bit of realism you are wasting your time......but then again if all you are out to do is take peoples money by hosting seminars on "color by numbers kyusho" and walking around talking about "accu-points" that most people are totally unfamiliar with then I guess you don't need to train with even the slightest bit of realism and standing "statue still" is OK.
The really sad part about those videos is that most of the folks weren't even knocked out..........
How do you spot the fakes and wannabees in Kyusho demos????.............they are always doing techniques on some poor slob that is just standing.

 

[DKI Girl]

1. All the clips on my website are what they are labeled.....Demonstrations!!

2. I want to have future ukes allow me to PRACTICE on them.

3. I am not Oyata and will never put kendo gear on someone just to see "if it works"....I know it works. Oyata has already done it, so why do DKI people need to do it? You can already see that it works....

I came to this forum for some intelligent discussion about marital arts and kyusho.....not to be bashed around like I am a 4 year old and you the parent. If there is not going to be some reasonable attitude of respect towards fellow martial artists, then I will just leave.

Just because you train one way, and I train "color by numbers" as you like to put it....doesn't mean that my way is wrong.

dkigirl

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I've always been of the opinion that a demo is just that, a demo. I think if we were seeing things done 'for real' we'd hear of alot more deaths in the arts. Another point to consider is do you really want someone who has half a clue, and less control going full speed on you?

Yes, training at full speed is good...so is training at slow speed. If the idea is to move fast and accurate, you must start out by learning to hit your target. I'm not familiar with the art in question, but am going on my own experiences from watching various classes in several arts.

To sum up, theres many ways of training. Find what works best for you and go for it.


-Mod note : Y'all relax a bit huh? Thanks.

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I've always been of the opinion that a demo is just that, a demo.

And as long as what is being done is expressly labeled as a demo then everything is fine. When folks train demo-style and believe that their technique will work when someone is coming at them in a significantly more powerful manner, they are misinformed at best...

I think if we were seeing things done 'for real' we'd hear of alot more deaths in the arts. Another point to consider is do you really want someone who has half a clue, and less control going full speed on you?

A) You are right - if things were done "for real" then there would be a lot more deaths (and I remember a few years back that martial arts were commented on as being safer than professional football... go figure!). But we aren't talking about doing things "for real." That should go without saying. What we are talking about is training with a certain degree of realism that approximates what will really happen, and I think everyone will agree that how you train is how you will react.

B) While having a rank amateur coming at you full speed (or nearly so) is a disheartening prospect, as either instructors or senior students it is our mission to train those junior to us... Last night I was working out with a friend's niece. She is a yellow belt in TKD, and needed to work on her stuff for an upcoming test. Since there were no TKD folks available, I agreed to help her workout. Due to the difference in our orientation of training, she had never actually kicked or punched another person before. Last night, she overcame her fear of striking another person, learned about distance and timing as it relates to having a body to strike/strike at, etc. I got tagged with a good number of pretty potent kicks (she has a really sweet sliding side kick that she managed to plant pretty solidly rather regularly!), and my belly is tender this morning... The point? Sometimes we have to let the beginners get some time in hitting us, making mistakes, and sometimes even getting slightly injured, if we are going to allow them to learn for real...

Yes, training at full speed is good...so is training at slow speed. If the idea is to move fast and accurate, you must start out by learning to hit your target. I'm not familiar with the art in question, but am going on my own experiences from watching various classes in several arts.

And I would agree completely. Taiji is one of the arts I study, and the entire training philosophy behind it is to train slowly to develop the coordination that you will use at full speed... However, unlike a lot of taiji schools I have dealt with, we frequently speed up the techniques to train them at "combat speed."

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

 

[Matt Stone]

Just as an afterthought...

The Dog Brothers are held in pretty high regard in FMA circles.

Why?

Because they do what they do and they do it for real.

Sure, people get banged up, but nobody questions the skills, validity and authenticity of what they do.

If I used foam padded sticks, only swung them at half power, and never actually tried to make contact, I guarantee that FMA proponents would come crashing down on me for my lack of realistic training...

Hope I'm not kicking a dead horse here...

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

 

[arnisador]

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

1. All the clips on my website are what they are labeled.....Demonstrations!!

Good enough then, but demonstrations of what? That striking certain points produces certain effects? Good, too. That using said striking points can be useful in self defense? Still good. That doing the striking as demonstrated equals adequate self defense training? Not good...

2. I want to have future ukes allow me to PRACTICE on them.

I can fully understand your concern... I think it was Jigaro Kano that said, when commenting on what bowing is intended to mean to a judoka, "when I bow, I am apologizing for the pain that is about to occur, and acknowledging that it is to our mutual benefit and is not meant to be taken personally." Or something to that effect.

Not too many folks get off on being whacked where whacking causes "come to Jesus" pain... However, when all involved realize that it is to their mutual benefit and development to participate, the fear of having future ukes turn tail and run is reduced significantly... There is the issue of having brand spanking new students hightail it away from your school, and that is a legitimate concern as well for those involved in commercial instruction, but it begs the question: "Do I teach to pass on martial knowledge, or do I teach to put food on my table?" Sometimes the answers are mutually exclusive...

3. I am not Oyata and will never put kendo gear on someone just to see "if it works"....I know it works.

How do you know it works? Maybe you know "it" works. Not trying to get snippy, but if you have never done it at full or near full speed, you have absolutely no idea whether it will or won't work for you.

Oyata has already done it, so why do DKI people need to do it? You can already see that it works....

Sure, we all know Taika Oyata has done it/can do it. DKI and other people need to do it too, because all we know from Taika Oyata doing it is that he can do it... That doesn't mean that by extension we can, too...

Just because you train one way, and I train "color by numbers" as you like to put it....doesn't mean that my way is wrong.

I hope I am coming across not as disrespectful, but as debating. There can be, logically, only one right way of doing a thing. There cannot be more than one right way, because then one of them is not 100% right. If training a particular way yields particular results, then that way should be examined for its merits, whatever way that is.

I have studied vital point striking in my "mother" system of Yili for a long time. We have always trained to apply them first at slow speed to develop knowledge of the point, the angle of striking, the relationship of our body to theirs, the timing, etc. But we end up hammering the dog snot out of each other at near full speed to ensure we are able to apply what we know for real.

When I started training with RyuShiKan, it was the same thing. I have never witnessed DKI training firsthand, but if training to strike vital points, or any points for that matter, is never done at near full speed, then the people training are kidding themselves on what they are really capable of. I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with this premise, since it is the basis of the major arguments against TKD, goofy kung fu schools, non-combative Taiji (and for that matter a lot of allegedly combat oriented Taiji), etc.

Please don't take offense to my comments. I mean them in the spirit of combined support and education.

:asian:

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

dkigirl [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Just as an afterthought...

The Dog Brothers are held in pretty high regard in FMA circles.

Why?

Because they do what they do and they do it for real.

Sure, people get banged up, but nobody questions the skills, validity and authenticity of what they do.

Actually I did hear of one story. Let me first say I don't
take ANYTHING away from those guys, they're hard core to the
bone, no doubt! But this story I heard (can't say I know
for a fact that it's valid, I don't know the guy personally who
told it to me) ... but he said he got to hang with those guys,
and he was the first to get a strike in. It went straight to the
top of his opponent's head, and dented the hell out of his
helmet. This blow would've at LEAST knocked him out in the
real world. But the guy whose head would've been caved in
won the 'fight' ... he got the other guy to tap out. I still do
NOT question the skills validity or authenticity of what they do
... but just thought I'd share .. some do question it, even if
it's just SLIGHTLY.

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Well, that is just the consequences of trying to not actually kill your opponent...

Safety equipment is meant to provide just that... SAFETY.

While I am not a member, nor do I endorse their training, the SCA folks do work on the honor system when they "fight," and blows they know would represent debilitating injury are usually honored and kudos are given to the one that dealt it.

Just one of those things, I guess...

 

[Matt Stone]

Why the sudden ER rush of folks when a person gets smacked and KO'd?

Just wondering...

My teacher has KO'd me before (I asked him to, since I had never experienced it before - he thought I was stupid, but indulged me), and I was allowed to recover naturally... No smacking, whacking, crossing of arms or massage needed.

Just wondering...

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Why the sudden ER rush of folks when a person gets smacked and KO'd?

This has always seemed like showmanship to me.

I have heard similar stories about the Dog Brothers--they disregard hits that would stop or at least slow down someone.

Only one right way of doing things? I don't buy it!

 

[Matt Stone]

Only one right way of doing things? I don't buy it!

What I mean by that is if you say "this is the strongest punch in the world," then logically all other punches must be weaker. There can't be two strongest punches... then they aren't both the strongest, but of similar strength that may surpass all others. The whole "-est" indicates no others beyond that level...

So if someone says "this method of X is the best," then they imply, literally, that all others are lesser, false, flawed. There cannot be two best ways...

Now.

That isn't to say that you cannot achieve the same result with two different approaches. You can use trapping hands, sticky hands, rolling hands, or push hands to result in the exact same identical trap. Four ways, one result. But that is a whole other comparison, and perhaps that is what DKIGirl was trying to imply...

 

[Cthulhu]

The Dog Brothers are a...unique...breed (pun intended). The ones who have been fighting with them for a while wear very little protection: fencing mask, batting gloves, elbow pads (not for the opponents' protection, but to keep from tearing their elbows when they hit the fencing mask grill), and maybe knee pads. They started out with heavier protection, but over the years, the armor got lighter and lighter as they searched for more realistic training. Bear in mind, they fight with this minimal protection with rattan sticks of various sizes, bokken, nunchaku, whips, empty-hand, etc.

I would love to train at that level, but I have responsibilities that would be endangered if I got a serious injury.

Gotta love their motto: "Higher Consciousness Through Harder Contact" (C)

Cthulhu

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

1. All the clips on my website are what they are labeled.....Demonstrations!!

I don't know why since you weren't demonstrating any technique.
Both people were standing still and one of them just whacked the other one.............rather ineffectively too.
I never said they had to be really attacking you..........even if they just moved at 10% speed that would be good but in most of them they aren't even attacking they are just standing doing nothing.
So "demonstrating" on how to smack a person who is not attacking.............pretty useful stuff.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

2. I want to have future ukes allow me to PRACTICE on them.

I don't see what the problem is......if what you think you are doing will really works then you should be able to do the same technique on them with the same results and without serious injury.........in essence you would be doing the same technique except they would actually be moving.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

3. I am not Oyata and will never put kendo gear on someone just to see "if it works................... You can already see that it works....

Firstly the kendo helmet comment was inaccurate and the person that made it has his facts jumbled.
Secondly, the stuff I saw on your website doesn't work. It looks like 99% of the other "color by numbers kyusho" crap that I see wanna bees do.

Thirdly, they are ineffective and lack any sense of realism........not to mention footwork, body alignment, speed, distancing etc.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

I came to this forum for some intelligent discussion about marital arts and kyusho.....

As Clint Eastwood (Dirty Harry) said once: "If you wanna play lumber jack you better be able to handle your end of the log"

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl



Just because you train one way, and I train "color by numbers" as you like to put it....doesn't mean that my way is wrong.

dkigirl

I think I can safely say that with my years of hands on clinical training, not mention the exams I took and passed plus the license to practice, TCM that qualify me as a person to say your "color by numbers kyusho" method is a crock of you know what.