My Dojo Is Becoming Infected

oaktree

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I wonder if "channeling demons" is out of context.
Like Fudo Myoo may be seen as a wraithful deity even demonic looking.
The idea of Fudoshin having a heart like Fudo means showing fearlessness.

I wonder what particular demon/demons Hatsumi was refering to. It's unsual not just in Martial arts but also in Shinto, Mikkyo to go channeling demons into yourself I have not read this so I am curious about it.

I do think the channeling demons in a literal sense is a mistranslation or out of context.
I think it meant more showing fearlessness,wraithfulness than actual channeling demons.
 

Ken Morgan

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Even more off topic, but allowing one invisible, imaginary being access to your body but not any of the others seems to me to be a little disrespectful.
 

Aiki Lee

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Some of these beings may very well be imaginary, but there is one in particular I strongly believe in. So when it comes to something like a Tengu or other mythical creature, I can appreciate the symbollism without believing there is any real danger of being inhabited by actual evil spirits.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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I wonder if "channeling demons" is out of context.
Like Fudo Myoo may be seen as a wraithful deity even demonic looking.
The idea of Fudoshin having a heart like Fudo means showing fearlessness.

I wonder what particular demon/demons Hatsumi was refering to. It's unsual not just in Martial arts but also in Shinto, Mikkyo to go channeling demons into yourself I have not read this so I am curious about it.

I do think the channeling demons in a literal sense is a mistranslation or out of context.
I think it meant more showing fearlessness,wraithfulness than actual channeling demons.
Which of course brings us back to making sure to know what someone is actually saying and talking about, which requires greater effort when the one saying something speaks a different language than your own.

Daniel
 

Chris Parker

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I had said on one of my previous posts to Lionsroar essentially that 'if Hatsumi says that's what you're doing, then that is what it is.'

But does Hatsumi actually say that that is what he is doing? Does Hatusmi invite anything to inhabit himself? For the record, I am interested in knowing what his actual teaching is soley for being informed on the subject, not to debate it.

For the record also, from a general Christian perspective, inviting anything other than God to inhabit one's body is generally considered a no-no, and spirits not of God are generally assumed to be demons. I say generally because there may be some Christian denomination that deviates in this regard, and some Christians may also deviate from the norm in this regard as well.

Daniel

I have heard of Hatsumi talking about the Kami of the various Ryu-ha, as well as Tanemura. Tanemura has mentioned (in the old Panther video series) that when he teaches a particular Ryu-ha, he asks for permission from the spiritual ancestors (the warriors who went before him in the lineage) to teach the art correctly and well, ensuring that the students get the right feel of the art. I haven't ever heard of them "inviting" anything to "inhabit" them, though. The Shinto aspect that this relates to is that everything in nature and the world is attributed a "spirit", or Kami. This is not necessarily a deity, or anything similar, it is more recognising the inherent value in each different thing that exists (from a Christian point of view, it may be seen as recognising God in everything - although that's not really accurate either).

Amen,

Needless to say this is a little off topic, but asking anything to inhabit yourself other than God is DANGEROUS! The story told earlier reminds me of a story in the Bible:




(Matthew 8:28-34 NIV)
28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon‑possessed men coming from the tombs met him.
They were so violent that no one could pass that way.
29 What do you want with us, Son of God? they shouted. Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?
30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding.
31 The demons begged Jesus, If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.
32 He said to them, Go! So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water.
33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon‑possessed men.
34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.


Three quick observations:

- Men where in tombs....I wonder what they where doing?
- Demons knew who Jesus was, and obeyed his command!
- Demons knew of their future judgment!


Okay im off of my soap box now! There are many other passages we could look at but I chose this one for its simplicity!
I have personally seen people possessed and they can be dangerous and downright scary! All one needs to do is watch a
few movies or youtube videos to see how true life stories become nightmares!



Chris

Okay, playing with fire here a bit, but I really don't see this as anything other than specious reasoning. Your argument comes down to a biblical passage from one of the Gospels (Matthew), and you are using that to demonstrate the idea of demonic possesion as a concrete thing, using this story as a factual piece of evidence. I would say that it fails on a number of levels for that.

A few quick observations:

- The Gospels were written up to a Century after Jesus' time, and are not definitive eye-witness accounts by any means whatsoever.
- The idea that a story, written many years, decades in fact, after Jesus had died is showing anything literally true is questionable, especially when you are looking to aspects of that story as factual without any other evidence to support (stating as fact the "Demons knew of their future judgment", "knew who Jesus was, and obeyed" are not to be considered credible accounts).
- Stories, such as this, do not have a purpose other than to be self-determining evidence for Christianity. Saying many years after the event (if it happened at all) that "Oh, they recognised him as the Son of God!" as evidence that he was is really the same as Ashida Kim saying that his teacher was recognised as a "true Ninjer" by the people he fought, and Ashida knows it because Ashida himself wrote it down last week!

This is not to disparage the story, Christianity, the Bible, or anything else, just pointing out that for this story to mean what you want it to requires faith to already be in place that such things are true, they really don't stand on their own merit. Especially the observations you made from it.
 

mook jong man

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This could very well be a case of demonic possession.

amy-winehouse1.jpg


But in her case its more likely to be cocaine possession.
 

Cirdan

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Okay im off of my soap box now! There are many other passages we could look at but I chose this one for its simplicity!
I have personally seen people possessed and they can be dangerous and downright scary! All one needs to do is watch a
few movies or youtube videos to see how true life stories become nightmares!

I just spent twenty minutes trying to conjure up mighty Asmodeus to enter my body. Unsucessfully, what ever am I doing wrong? Perhaps Belphegor or Astaroth are easier, I will have to try again.. once I`ve found another chiken to sacrifice.

Anyway people don`t need demons to become crazy scary or dangerous. They are perfectly able to do that on their own, but it is comfortable to blame the supernatural I guess. Sometimes one needs to watch one`s choise of cool drinks.

This could very well be a case of demonic possession.

Are you seriously suggesting a demon would want to enter that?
 

Tez3

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This fear of demon/devil worship stuff can be dangerous and ruin peoples lives.
http://www.wunderkabinett.co.uk/damndata/index.php?/archives/129-Scottish-Satanic-Abuse.html

Start talkling about 'devils' in a martial arts club could well have social workers come sniffing around to take away students children.

http://afriendlyletter.com/afl121.html

We can joke about it this but there are people who take devil worship etc so seriously they are prepared to destroy people to 'save' them.
There was never any evidence to even suggest any of the children's families had been devil worshipping or had abused their children in any way, in fact some of the children were Quakers, some of the nicest, most genuinely caring religious people I know who try only to do good and never impose their views on others. The very best of people in fact.
 

ETinCYQX

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In a seperate school from any church I'd have an issue with this to say the least. Completely unfair to allow a completely unrelated system of beliefs into a dojo. One could maybe make a case for a related belief, i.e some kind of spiritual component to the art itself, but that's ridiculous outside of a church club and would definitely send me personally packing.
 

Ken Morgan

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Then spiritual has a whole range of definitions too. Is it a warm fuzzy feeling you get when around friends and family, or a feeling of contentment? It’s a wishy washy word that some people throw around, but it has a different meaning depending on who you ask. Some think that it’s a fluff word, that means nothing but a backwards attempt at religion.
 

ETinCYQX

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Then spiritual has a whole range of definitions too. Is it a warm fuzzy feeling you get when around friends and family, or a feeling of contentment? Its a wishy washy word that some people throw around, but it has a different meaning depending on who you ask. Some think that its a fluff word, that means nothing but a backwards attempt at religion.

The subjectivity of the issue creates difficulty distinguishing what's acceptable and what's unfair, but I don't think specific religious points that are/were relevant/important to the philosophy of the martial art as intended by its founders (I.e not a connection made between religion and the art by a non-founder instructor) would cross that line. Catholic/Christian themes in a dojo for a Japanese art certainly do. Spirituality was a poor choice of words.
 

ETinCYQX

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16 pages in and it hasn't yet.

I don't think it will, either. We respect each other's arts and learn from them, not much difference in religion.
 

Carol

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The subjectivity of the issue creates difficulty distinguishing what's acceptable and what's unfair, but I don't think specific religious points that are/were relevant/important to the philosophy of the martial art as intended by its founders (I.e not a connection made between religion and the art by a non-founder instructor) would cross that line. Catholic/Christian themes in a dojo for a Japanese art certainly do. Spirituality was a poor choice of words.

I dunno if I would say that is unacceptable or unfair. I much prefer religious themes be front and center. It may not be people's cup of tea, absolutely! But how can a person make an informed decision if they do not experience the Christian themes when they visit?
 

Eazy

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Fair call i reckon your concern is fair and you aswell as the others should not have to ware that patch. Your trainer should also respect your beliefs as you repect his.
 

ETinCYQX

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I dunno if I would say that is unacceptable or unfair. I much prefer religious themes be front and center. It may not be people's cup of tea, absolutely! But how can a person make an informed decision if they do not experience the Christian themes when they visit?

What I really meant was that the Christian themes shouldn't be in the dojo at all, not that they should be hidden from visitors. They just don't belong there.
 

jthomas1600

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Our church runs a "Christian" basketball league every year. It's hugely popular in our community. They couch and teach really good basketball. Each game is opened with a prayer and there's a short "devotion" at half time. The schools run a league and the parks and recreation district runs a league. So everyone's got plenty of choices. If they don't want to hear a prayer or a short devotion they can play in one of the other leagues, or even not play at all. I see martial arts as the same way. Some may be heavily steeped in eastern religious beliefs, some may be christian and some like the one I train at may be completely neutral. If you don't like Christian beliefs being promoted at your school, don't go to one that promotes Christian beliefs. It's that simple in my mind.
 

Tez3

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Our church runs a "Christian" basketball league every year. It's hugely popular in our community. They couch and teach really good basketball. Each game is opened with a prayer and there's a short "devotion" at half time. The schools run a league and the parks and recreation district runs a league. So everyone's got plenty of choices. If they don't want to hear a prayer or a short devotion they can play in one of the other leagues, or even not play at all. I see martial arts as the same way. Some may be heavily steeped in eastern religious beliefs, some may be christian and some like the one I train at may be completely neutral. If you don't like Christian beliefs being promoted at your school, don't go to one that promotes Christian beliefs. It's that simple in my mind.

I think everyone agrees with that but the OP's problem was that his dojo changed after he'd trained there for a while so he didn't get the choice to train at a religious place or not, it was more or less imposed unless he wanted to leave.
 

jthomas1600

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Tez, there were several posts (most notably the one directly before mine) that said Christian themes had no place in a dojo. That is what I was responding to.

As to the school changing over time? Right or wrong, that happens too. And it's not just with the religious stuff. I've already seen a number of threads on here along the lines of "my school used to be hard core self defense, now it's all light contact point sparring geared towards sports". What are you gonna do right? You can stay and change with the school, or you can move on.
 
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