Moving this summer

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think it comes from this part of the initial post: You're dad talking with each master.

The first master responding: "I wouldn't know what class to put him in; and this school is like a family, how would the students think if I brought in someone outside the family?" and the second master responding: ""We can get him his 4th Dan and help him open a school in your town, since there aren't any Kukkiwon schools there."

We don't know (Unless I missed it , but I don't think you ever stated) what exactly the conversation your dad had with the two instructors. But both of those sentences don't make a huge amount of sense if you're dad didn't mention you wanting to teach there. For the first; why would a new student be anything different than another new student regardless of rank? It seems odd...but it seems much less odd if he was talking about "bringing in" someone the students aren't familiar with as a teacher, rather than a student.

For the second one, it would be presumptuous on the master's part to just state he's going to help you open a school, if your dad didn't initially state something about your own plans to teach/open a school. If he did, then that response also makes a lot more sense.

I'm not saying that's what he did or didn't say. But reading the OP again, it absolutely comes with the vibe that your dad had asked about you teaching when he went to scout out the schools.

I re-read through some of the post, and saw on post 8 you said ""My son is moving here soon, here is his situation, and here are his goals." Considering your goals, that you've expressed here is teaching and eventually running your own dojo, I think it's a fair assumption to assume your dad said that when mentioning your goals. The rest of that post, with your response to Wab makes it pretty clear that you're planning to teach at whatever school you go to, and it's a matter of when, not if, for you.

If that's not the case, and either your dad didn't ask about you becoming a teacher, or you'd be perfectly fine training somewhere that didn't have an intention of having you become an instructor and just staying as a student, it would help if you clarified that.

 

[skribs]

I think it comes from this part of the initial post: You're dad talking with each master.

The first master responding: "I wouldn't know what class to put him in; and this school is like a family, how would the students think if I brought in someone outside the family?" and the second master responding: ""We can get him his 4th Dan and help him open a school in your town, since there aren't any Kukkiwon schools there."

We don't know (Unless I missed it , but I don't think you ever stated) what exactly the conversation your dad had with the two instructors. But both of those sentences don't make a huge amount of sense if you're dad didn't mention you wanting to teach there. For the first; why would a new student be anything different than another new student regardless of rank? It seems odd...but it seems much less odd if he was talking about "bringing in" someone the students aren't familiar with as a teacher, rather than a student.

For the second one, it would be presumptuous on the master's part to just state he's going to help you open a school, if your dad didn't initially state something about your own plans to teach/open a school. If he did, then that response also makes a lot more sense.

I'm not saying that's what he did or didn't say. But reading the OP again, it absolutely comes with the vibe that your dad had asked about you teaching when he went to scout out the schools.

Yes, my Dad did talk about me teaching. But there are a lot of options before "take over a class." I outlined them in my reply (which you quoted, so I'm assuming you read). There's a sliding scale between:

1. I come in as a student, and only ever plan to be a student
2. I come in as a student, and plan to be a teacher
3. I come in as a probationary assistant instructor, who will start off primarily observing (and helping "herd cats" in the little kid's class)
4. I come in as a probationary assistant instructor, who will start off leading warmups and then observing during regular class
5. I come in as an assistant instructor, who will also be doing private lessons to get caught up to speed on everything
6. I come in as an instructor, am given a recorded copy of the curriculum and told to teach, with the Master observing my first few classes to provide feedback
7. I come in as an instructor, am given a recorded copy of the curriculum and thrown to the wolves
8. I come in as an instructor, am told, "here is your class, do what you will with it"
9. I come in as an instructor, am told, "I'm going on vacation, take care of the school"

I imagine that anywhere from #2-4 is where a reasonable Master would start me. Anything lower than that, and I'm wasting my time, because I'm not going to be able to achieve my goals at the school. Anything higher than that, and I question the quality-control of the school.

I don't think talking about my qualifications and goals, and then finding a school that tentatively accepts those qualifications and has the ability to meet those goals is out of line. That's how any relationship (especially a business relationship) works. Two people or groups meeting each other's needs.

And that's what's happening. Discussions about what my goals are, and what the dojang is capable of doing. There haven't been any contracts or promises in either direction.

Of all the things I said, you latched on to that. Fair enough. Good luck to you.

I picked the lowest hanging fruit. I could go into more detail on the other things I disagreed with, if you want.

Or he could simply not have a need for another instructor at the moment or he could have an evaluation process that takes months or years before deciding on who will be an 'instructor' at the school.

Then say that. Say "this is the process to be an instructor", instead of "I wouldn't know what to do with him, and the 'family' wouldn't accept him as an outsider."

First and foremost the school is a small business.

Exactly. And businesses generally have processes of bringing someone new onboard other than "I don't know what to do with you, and you probably wouldn't be accepted."

Sure, an introduction letter from someone the owner knows would perhaps help but rank itself may not open the door to a teaching opportunity.

So, because someone writing a letter doesn't guarantee a job, I shouldn't try to get the job? If we all followed this advice, everyone would be unemployed.

You may also go in to a few classes and decide you don't like the energy and flow of the instruction. They may have a different emphasis or focus. They may also just do things differently. They may be more focused on fitness instead of technique or they may be more of a family based dojang with kids and adults training together.

So, because I might not like the place, I shouldn't try it out? If we all followed this advice, the human race would die off because nobody would date.

Make sure the place is somewhere you want to be and that they have a need and desire for someone like you before announcing your intentions. Once the instructors and students see what you can do they may come to you and ask if that is something you would be interested in.

How would I know if they can meet my intentions without announcing them? If we're following that logic, why would they ask me if I'm interested unless they knew I was interested? Do psychics actually exist in your world, and are common enough that you can give advice to people as if they have these mind-reading powers?

 

[skribs]

I re-read through some of the post, and saw on post 8 you said ""My son is moving here soon, here is his situation, and here are his goals." Considering your goals, that you've expressed here is teaching and eventually running your own dojo, I think it's a fair assumption to assume your dad said that when mentioning your goals. The rest of that post, with your response to Wab makes it pretty clear that you're planning to teach at whatever school you go to, and it's a matter of when, not if, for you.

If that's not the case, and either your dad didn't ask about you becoming a teacher, or you'd be perfectly fine training somewhere that didn't have an intention of having you become an instructor and just staying as a student, it would help if you clarified that.

Was this all not already clear?

I am almost 4th Dan at my school. I would like to get my 4th Dan and my Master Certificate so I can open a school. I would like to teach, because I enjoy teaching, and also I'd like to learn a new perspective on teaching. I also assume this would be part of evaluating me for Master rank.

My Dad told my training and teaching history, as well as my desire to teach and my goal of getting my qualifications and opening a school. Upon hearing this, the first Master's attitude is that there isn't any place for me as a student or instructor. The second Master's attitude was that these are goals they can help me achieve.

 

[wab25]

I'll also repeat what I said back in post #12:
Why is there this assumption that I'm going to go in and grunt, "Me third dan. Me teach....No. Not student. Teacher. Me teach. Good teach. Other teacher suck. Me better. LET. ME. TEEEEEAAAAAACCHHHHH!!"

One thing to consider... sometimes there is a big difference between what one person says and what the other person hears. This is something I have had to learn the hard way. Many times, there are other contexts in the other persons life that you have no control over and no knowledge of, that effects how the other guy takes what you are saying to him.

At the end of the day... if you become an instructor at a school... there has to be spot for you as an instructor. It could be that the school has spots for more instructors, it could be that one instructor wants a lighter schedule or is moving away... or they could need to cut time from another instructor. Whether your offer to teach is taken as an offer to help fill an empty position or whether it is an ask for them to cut out an existing instructor is going to be different at each school. Thats why many of us have suggested going there and checking it out first. Going in with the idea that I am looking for a place to train, as a student... yes I did do a lot of teaching and would enjoy doing that in the future... but for now, I am just looking to train.... this leaves the ball in his court, to invite you to teach when he is ready for you to be an instructor... it lets him set the time table. (he very well may need another instructor right now) Going in with I was an instructor at my old school and want to be an instructor at your school, so I want to be put into the instructor prep lane... can be taken a different way than you meant it. I have seen different school heads take that completely differently, and seen many doors closed. However, I have never seen going in looking to train and learn, close doors... in fact, I have seen that open quit a few doors.

We are all wishing you well in your move and hoping you find the right place to continue your study. The things said here, were all in an effort to help you accomplish your goal of teaching. This thread here, is an example of people being happy for you and trying to be helpful to you and some of it being taken in a different way than was meant.

 

[skribs]

It could be that the school has spots for more instructors, it could be that one instructor wants a lighter schedule or is moving away... or they could need to cut time from another instructor. Whether your offer to teach is taken as an offer to help fill an empty position or whether it is an ask for them to cut out an existing instructor is going to be different at each school. Thats why many of us have suggested going there and checking it out first. Going in with the idea that I am looking for a place to train, as a student... yes I did do a lot of teaching and would enjoy doing that in the future... but for now, I am just looking to train.... this leaves the ball in his court, to invite you to teach when he is ready for you to be an instructor... it lets him set the time table.

Again, this is where I am going to fall back on the strategy I've been planning on this whole time: talk to him like an adult. If there isn't an opening for another instructor and there won't be, then I don't want to go there. I want to go somewhere else, where there will likely be an opening at some point.

Instructors are also not a zero-sum game. He could simply add an instructor spot. At my current school, there are some classes that are "as many instructors as we can get, we'll take." There are other classes that are simply convenient for students to get their instructor hours, and we tend to have quite a few (such as just before or after the black belt class). If a class normally has four instructors, it's not that crazy to add a fifth. These are often volunteer positions, unless you're taking charge of entire classes.

We can discuss a time table. But if even the discussion of the time table is off limits, why am I going to get involved?

We are all wishing you well in your move and hoping you find the right place to continue your study. The things said here, were all in an effort to help you accomplish your goal of teaching. This thread here, is an example of people being happy for you and trying to be helpful to you and some of it being taken in a different way than was meant.

Ah, yes. The old "white knight" approach.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yes, my Dad did talk about me teaching. But there are a lot of options before "take over a class." I outlined them in my reply (which you quoted, so I'm assuming you read). There's a sliding scale between:

1. I come in as a student, and only ever plan to be a student
2. I come in as a student, and plan to be a teacher
3. I come in as a probationary assistant instructor, who will start off primarily observing (and helping "herd cats" in the little kid's class)
4. I come in as a probationary assistant instructor, who will start off leading warmups and then observing during regular class
5. I come in as an assistant instructor, who will also be doing private lessons to get caught up to speed on everything
6. I come in as an instructor, am given a recorded copy of the curriculum and told to teach, with the Master observing my first few classes to provide feedback
7. I come in as an instructor, am given a recorded copy of the curriculum and thrown to the wolves
8. I come in as an instructor, am told, "here is your class, do what you will with it"
9. I come in as an instructor, am told, "I'm going on vacation, take care of the school"

I imagine that anywhere from #2-4 is where a reasonable Master would start me. Anything lower than that, and I'm wasting my time, because I'm not going to be able to achieve my goals at the school. Anything higher than that, and I question the quality-control of the school.

I don't think talking about my qualifications and goals, and then finding a school that tentatively accepts those qualifications and has the ability to meet those goals is out of line. That's how any relationship (especially a business relationship) works. Two people or groups meeting each other's needs.

And that's what's happening. Discussions about what my goals are, and what the dojang is capable of doing. There haven't been any contracts or promises in either direction.


I picked the lowest hanging fruit. I could go into more detail on the other things I disagreed with, if you want.



Then say that. Say "this is the process to be an instructor", instead of "I wouldn't know what to do with him, and the 'family' wouldn't accept him as an outsider."

Exactly. And businesses generally have processes of bringing someone new onboard other than "I don't know what to do with you, and you probably wouldn't be accepted."

So, because someone writing a letter doesn't guarantee a job, I shouldn't try to get the job? If we all followed this advice, everyone would be unemployed.

So, because I might not like the place, I shouldn't try it out? If we all followed this advice, the human race would die off because nobody would date.


How would I know if they can meet my intentions without announcing them? If we're following that logic, why would they ask me if I'm interested unless they knew I was interested? Do psychics actually exist in your world, and are common enough that you can give advice to people as if they have these mind-reading powers?

Was this all not already clear?

I am almost 4th Dan at my school. I would like to get my 4th Dan and my Master Certificate so I can open a school. I would like to teach, because I enjoy teaching, and also I'd like to learn a new perspective on teaching. I also assume this would be part of evaluating me for Master rank.

My Dad told my training and teaching history, as well as my desire to teach and my goal of getting my qualifications and opening a school. Upon hearing this, the first Master's attitude is that there isn't any place for me as a student or instructor. The second Master's attitude was that these are goals they can help me achieve.

All of those options you listed make sense to me, although there's also 1.5 "Come in as a student, then the instructor talks to you later about if it would make sense to plan for you to teach eventually." Mainly that the plan doesn't have to be set on his end.

That said, I've got nothing against you saying you want to eventually teach there. As a 3rd dan it makes sense to me, especially if that's a requirement for 4th dan (which it is in many styles for a later dan). My point was just that you were asking where you said you would have to teach, and that's pretty much what your plan is-you wouldn't go to a school that wouldn't let you eventually become a teacher.

Which, again, is fine on both ends. It's perfectly reasonable for you to want to teach, and make that known from the start, and perfectly reasonable for a school to say yes, or no, (which was what yokozuna I believe was saying in his post "That being said, both TKD schools are essentially small businesses where the owners may not be so willing to turn over class time to someone he doesn't know regardless of their qualifications. Not at least without some vetting. Teaching is a position of trust and that is a position that should be earned unless you are financially responsible for opening the door (and perhaps when you do as well)." that you responded to with that you don't have an assumption to teach). Which confuses me, and why I asked for clarity, since now you are saying you do want to teach, so you would be okay with that vetting?

Ultimately, I'm not sure what the argument is here. You're stating you do want to teach, and will only go to a school that allows that as a possibility, but getting defensive when others bring up that this is your plan, and reasons a school/instructor may not be happy about this.

Edit: Unless I'm misunderstanding what wab or yokozuna are saying, that it's not okay for you to go in with that plan, and state essentially that you want to eventually teach and if that's not an option eventually then you'll look elsewhere. Do the two of you have an issue with that?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Also, I'm wondering what any of this has to do with whether or not skribs should try to learn the new masters extra-curriculum through his youtube channel, or just focus on the basics he knows. It's drifted so far I forgot that was the thread topic until I went back to reread.

 

[Yokozuna514]

All of those options you listed make sense to me, although there's also 1.5 "Come in as a student, then the instructor talks to you later about if it would make sense to plan for you to teach eventually." Mainly that the plan doesn't have to be set on his end.

That said, I've got nothing against you saying you want to eventually teach there. As a 3rd dan it makes sense to me, especially if that's a requirement for 4th dan (which it is in many styles for a later dan). My point was just that you were asking where you said you would have to teach, and that's pretty much what your plan is-you wouldn't go to a school that wouldn't let you eventually become a teacher.

Which, again, is fine on both ends. It's perfectly reasonable for you to want to teach, and make that known from the start, and perfectly reasonable for a school to say yes, or no, (which was what yokozuna I believe was saying in his post "That being said, both TKD schools are essentially small businesses where the owners may not be so willing to turn over class time to someone he doesn't know regardless of their qualifications. Not at least without some vetting. Teaching is a position of trust and that is a position that should be earned unless you are financially responsible for opening the door (and perhaps when you do as well)." that you responded to with that you don't have an assumption to teach). Which confuses me, and why I asked for clarity, since now you are saying you do want to teach, so you would be okay with that vetting?

Ultimately, I'm not sure what the argument is here. You're stating you do want to teach, and will only go to a school that allows that as a possibility, but getting defensive when others bring up that this is your plan, and reasons a school/instructor may not be happy about this.

Edit: Unless I'm misunderstanding what wab or yokozuna are saying, that it's not okay for you to go in with that plan, and state essentially that you want to eventually teach and if that's not an option eventually then you'll look elsewhere. Do the two of you have an issue with that?

Actually you summed it up pretty well. Personally I have no issue with any approach that Skribs wants to take. I do think some approaches are better than others in terms of meeting the ultimate goal but that is a matter of opinion in my 'limited' view of watching people (and myself) do exactly what Skribs will be attempting to do. There is not only one way to achieve that goal and hopefully Skribs will find a way that will allow him to do just that.

 

[wab25]

Actually you summed it up pretty well. Personally I have no issue with any approach that Skribs wants to take. I do think some approaches are better than others in terms of meeting the ultimate goal but that is a matter of opinion in my 'limited' view of watching people (and myself) do exactly what Skribs will be attempting to do. There is not only one way to achieve that goal and hopefully Skribs will find a way that will allow him to do just that.

I am with Yokozuna here. I have already done what skribs is trying to do. Mine was a little different, I went from California to Florida and tried to find a place to teach a style of Jujitsu that is not common to the south east.

I have also been on the other side, where other black belts have moved to Florida and wanted to come train at my school. Some of them out ranked me. But, at the end of the day, I am the one who put the school together and I am the one the students are coming for. I am also the one that my organization is backing to run a school.

I rent space from a larger martial arts school, we have a number of different arts sharing space. As school heads in a common dojo, we see people coming in wanting to be instructors in our dojo. The approach that works for the Judo school, will not work for the Karate school.

Ah, yes. The old "white knight" approach.

This is exactly what I was talking about. I meant nothing here, other than to pass along a few things that I learned, when doing something similar. My hopes were that it would help you in your process. But what you are hearing on your end seems to be a little different. In fact, the people you are arguing with in this thread, only ever tried to offer some friendly and helpful advice... and you seem to take it in a different way than they meant.

But, whatever way you choose to take, good luck with the move!

 

[skribs]

This is exactly what I was talking about. I meant nothing here, other than to pass along a few things that I learned, when doing something similar. My hopes were that it would help you in your process. But what you are hearing on your end seems to be a little different. In fact, the people you are arguing with in this thread, only ever tried to offer some friendly and helpful advice... and you seem to take it in a different way than they meant.

Doubling down on the white knight. Maybe treading towards gaslighting at this point.

 

[skribs]

Also, I'm wondering what any of this has to do with whether or not skribs should try to learn the new masters extra-curriculum through his youtube channel, or just focus on the basics he knows. It's drifted so far I forgot that was the thread topic until I went back to reread.

I'm thinking on a lot of these posts, I should just use a canned answer. "That wasn't the question."

This is also a big part of why I'm calling Wab and Yokozuna "white knights".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think it comes from this part of the initial post: You're dad talking with each master.

The first master responding: "I wouldn't know what class to put him in; and this school is like a family, how would the students think if I brought in someone outside the family?" and the second master responding: ""We can get him his 4th Dan and help him open a school in your town, since there aren't any Kukkiwon schools there."

We don't know (Unless I missed it , but I don't think you ever stated) what exactly the conversation your dad had with the two instructors. But both of those sentences don't make a huge amount of sense if you're dad didn't mention you wanting to teach there. For the first; why would a new student be anything different than another new student regardless of rank? It seems odd...but it seems much less odd if he was talking about "bringing in" someone the students aren't familiar with as a teacher, rather than a student.

For the second one, it would be presumptuous on the master's part to just state he's going to help you open a school, if your dad didn't initially state something about your own plans to teach/open a school. If he did, then that response also makes a lot more sense.

I'm not saying that's what he did or didn't say. But reading the OP again, it absolutely comes with the vibe that your dad had asked about you teaching when he went to scout out the schools.

I read the first one as the instructor not wanting him in the class (having nothing to do with instructing). Maybe I misread that.

 

[skribs]

I read the first one as the instructor not wanting him in the class (having nothing to do with instructing). Maybe I misread that.

Both. He doesn't know what class to put me in, and wouldn't believe the students would accept me as an instructor.

My Dad's thought was, "If he's the Master, shouldn't the students respect whoever he puts in?"

 

[drop bear]

Why do I have to instantly be an instructor? Why, upon starting as an instructor, do I have to just have class turned over to me? He could start me out as a student in class until he gets to know my character. He could start me as an assistant instructor, who basically just watches and observes. He could introduce me as a guest instructor, and supervise my first few classes. He could do private lessons to get to know me.

There are a ton of options other than just "Hi, I'm Master X, you will be teaching on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 7. Good luck." In fact, this would be the absolute worst idea anyone could do. You want to make sure someone from outside knows your way of doing things and knows your curriculum. If it's someone brought up inside, you want them to progress as an assistant before just turning over class to them.
You are technically correct that he shouldn't "turn over a class" to me upon meeting me for the first time. However, I don't see the relevance in my situation, as I'm not expecting to just have classes turned over to me.

I'll also repeat what I said back in post #12:
Why is there this assumption that I'm going to go in and grunt, "Me third dan. Me teach....No. Not student. Teacher. Me teach. Good teach. Other teacher suck. Me better. LET. ME. TEEEEEAAAAAACCHHHHH!!"

Is raising it at all kind of a red flag?

 

[skribs]

Is raising it at all kind of a red flag?

If communicating like an adult is a red flag, I don't want to train where you do.

 

[drop bear]

If communicating like an adult is a red flag, I don't want to train where you do.

If you knew our club. That is actually a fair comment.