most useless

[tshadowchaser]

I'll take your word on that
but it would not be my first choice Im sure

 

[FearlessFreep]

I agree

Thats actually true for a lot of kicks. Lotsa kicks that have minimal sparring usage, no real-world usage, but are good to work on for strength, balance, timing, etc...


Back to the point, the Z-Kick or inverted front kick comes to mind first

 

[Xue Sheng]

Simple flying jumping sidekick, like your opponet is just going to stand there while you come running at him and jump with that foot going right at him, please the movies are great but this kick is worthless and yet it get tought by everyone except me but my students learn it from vido games and movies.

IMO

Just about any aerial kick is useless (and I have been taught a few) unless your target is standing there not moving and has absolutely no intention of doing so.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Please explain this kick

 

[FearlessFreep]

Take it off a Russian 2 on 1, follow into a leg lock. Not the highest percentage move, but it can definitely work.

I could see how that could work...

I've also trained a scissors kick as part of a head-lock counter. (although It wasn't really my favorite of those techniques

 

[FearlessFreep]

Please explain this kick

Which one? (to whom are you replying?)

 

[tshadowchaser]

Which one? (to whom are you replying?)

the "Z" kick

 

[FearlessFreep]

IMO

Just about any aerial kick is useless (and I have been taught a few) unless your target is standing there not moving and has absolutely no intention of doing so.

I don't think that's quite true.

We usually think of kicks as isolated entities. So if you and I are facing each other in a combat situation, then something like a jump spin outside crescent or something as an initial move is probably not a high-probability of success. I think such individual techniques are going ot have a higher probability though if thought of as part of a scenario where the opponent has gotten into a situation where they are not ready for such an attack. That's a bit too abstract to think of anything definite...

Just as a silly example, I kick my opponent in the knee, he flinches and drops his head and shoulders a bit in reaction to the pain. Now, I have his attention low and I've dropped his shoulders and head. For a split instant, that jumping outside crescent becomes a higher probability attack. That's maybe a goofy example, but I'm just thinking that there are a lot of techniques that are not very useful starting from an even footing that may become more applicable as the dynamics of the encounter change positions, attentions, and reactions


Note: I don't tend to think of any technique as "will work" or "won't work", I tend to try to think of a) probability and b) risk vs reward. I want techniques with high probability and high reward/low risk, but sometimes circumstances dictate moving along that continuum

 

[FearlessFreep]

the "Z" kick

I was afraid of that OK, it's a bit hard to describe. If I can, I'll video myself doing one.

Basically you bring your leg up to chamber like any front kick (or roundhouse, etc...)

Now pivot your support foot, but when you pivot your foot, you also rotate your hips and shoulders so you are facing away from your opponent.

As you are doing this, your a re still bringing your kicking leg up so your foot is about shoulder high, or higher.

Now kick your foot downward, kicking the shoulder, face, front of chest, etc...

Problem is, you end up facing away from your opponent, and it's a rather lengthy kick, although it is deceiving...

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't think that's quite true.

We usually think of kicks as isolated entities. So if you and I are facing each other in a combat situation, then something like a jump spin outside crescent or something as an initial move is probably not a high-probability of success. I think such individual techniques are going ot have a higher probability though if thought of as part of a scenario where the opponent has gotten into a situation where they are not ready for such an attack. That's a bit too abstract to think of anything definite...

Just as a silly example, I kick my opponent in the knee, he flinches and drops his head and shoulders a bit in reaction to the pain. Now, I have his attention low and I've dropped his shoulders and head. For a split instant, that jumping outside crescent becomes a higher probability attack. That's maybe a goofy example, but I'm just thinking that there are a lot of techniques that are not very useful starting from an even footing that may become more applicable as the dynamics of the encounter change positions, attentions, and reactions


Note: I don't tend to think of any technique as "will work" or "won't work", I tend to try to think of a) probability and b) risk vs reward. I want techniques with high probability and high reward/low risk, but sometimes circumstances dictate moving along that continuum

Not arguing and this (IMO) is basically a whatever works for you kind of thing but I am not a big fan of aerial kicks, maybe it is the whole Internal CMA rooting thing could be that I am not even a big fan of the boxing approach to a fight that promotes constant back and forth weight shifting because at some point in the middle you will loose your root.

But in the case that you posted; Kick him in the knee first then it is likely he is not going to be moving much after that so a jump kick could work rather well. I however would likely just use a front snap kick and keep the other foot on the ground or a knoee strike depending on how low his head actually was.

 

[kaizasosei]

the most useless kicks are i would say two kicks.

one would be any kick that doesn't connect well.

the second would be the kick where you bend down only slightly but your leg goes back all the way so your footsole touches the back of your head(or thonk anothers). the reason this kick is useless for me is because im not flexible enough at the moment.

but ive been sitting here for minutes vegging out thinking up useless kicks from hackysack moves to tripple kicks and double legged kicks, scisorrs? -
let's face it, any kick can be useful at some point- unless you cant do it right then it's more like the person is useless not the kick.

doublekicks need lots of energy and involve jumping so they may be anwanted for some, scisors may mean you need to go to the ground also at some point..im facinated by the technique where you run up and kick opposite side with own sole to opponents hip and then jump up to vice the enemy neck with the other leg between calf and theigh right at the own knee literally riding the person while choking with leg. tripple kicks may be hard to do in the first place and landing all three an even great feat. there are only around three kinds of tripple kicks i know of and can use. tripple kick three kicks in the air.
also, the arial and physically challenging aspect of extreme coordination may make such moves undesirable.

i personally however, think that the jumping sidekick has a number of very realistic applications.

j

 

[FearlessFreep]

But in the case that you posted; Kick him in the knee first then it is likely he is not going to be moving much after that so a jump kick could work rather well. I however would likely just use a front snap kick and keep the other foot on the ground or a knoee strike depending on how low his head actually was.

Oh, yeah, at that point in the game there's a whole lot you can do. My only thought/intention was that there are techniques that make no sense when taken as individual techniques that can become more possible depending on the flowing condition. That was just a made up illustration.

One qualifier to the idea of risk/reward or probability is that not everyone falls into the same way. How risky a technique is and how much bang you get out of it depends on how much you practice it, how you practice it, and how comfortable you are with it. I don't practice aerial kicks in general enough to say it would be something I would feel confident doing if I had to (although I do occasionally use that jump outside crescent when sparring)

 

[Miles]

Thats actually true for a lot of kicks. Lotsa kicks that have minimal sparring usage, no real-world usage, but are good to work on for strength, balance, timing, etc...


Back to the point, the Z-Kick or inverted front kick comes to mind first

I vote for twisting kick and crescent kicks. Great for training, useless in combat.....

 

[zDom]

Gonna play the Devil's Advocate here for a sec

I've always thought a flying sidekick does have at least ONE use:

Suppose someone is attacking someone else (or several other people?) and you are rushing to their defense from a short distance. Rather than run up and then skid to a stop, why not just blast them with a flying sidekick?

I can't think of a better technique for this particular situation if their attention is on someone else.

As for historical "kick 'em off a horse" idea, it could just be BS, but I'm wondering if it wasn't an ambush technique in which they waited for the horsemen to ride in an area with a high shoulder so they didn't have to jump as high. (shrug)

Now, on that "snake kick" — are you talking about a twist kick/inverted roundhouse? Or something completely different? Not sure I'm getting your description.

I find a twist kick takes some learning, but once you get the hang of it (and some flexibility at the hip joint ), it is NOT hard on your knee and can generate a signficant amount of power.



Ok, /end devil's advocate


The kick I personally find not worth training at all is a midsection hook kick. I think it has applications low at the ankle or knee, and high at the head, but I don't think it has much value unless you can really pull it through.

 

[FearlessFreep]

OK, here is a quick demo of a z-kick.

http://r4h-music.com/movies/mymovie2.mov

Bare in mind I just started the recorder and didn't set this up as a demo, just trying to illustrate something to you guys here.

This is not a kick I know well or do well or practice much or have ever tried in sparring or anything, so you can extrapolate from my basic mechanics and motions what's supposed to be happening, but don't take it seriously as a good example of the kick.

I know some people who can do it well (fast and powerful) and have used it effectively in sparring so I know it can be effective in context, but it seems to me to be a very 'gimmicky' kick with little practical use.

 

[KickFest]

OK, here is a quick demo of a z-kick

That looks like a variant of turning (roundhouse) kick that I've seen. As you twist your body round with your foot in the air you would then pull it down into the opponent's leg. The way I see it there, it looks like you might damage your knee if that actually landed and your body kept turning :uhohh: (not commenting on your technique, just what I can make of the kick).

I agree that I can't see any obvious application of it. On that basis Z-kick and twisting kick are the ones I would single out.

 

[YoungMan]

Personal most useless kick? Alternating roundhouse kick used extensively in WTF Olympic sparring.

Other than that, to me the most useless kicks are the ones you never bothered to learn and apply. Every kick has uses-you just have to understand when and where to use them.

 

[Marginal]

The big problem with the horseback theory.... horse are tall, you'd have to be clearing 6 feet and kicking at 8 feet. Those Okinawans / Koreans aren't the tallest people on the planet either. I just can't see someone kicking a person off a horse.

Nor can I see a disarmed public composed of farmers and fishermans fighting off heavily armed professional warriors using improvised weapons, the kicking off a horse seems to have come out of that story line.

On top of that...

Why are the Koreans are supposed to be ignorant of the spear? They had ties with China, the Chinese used spears etc. Why would you waste time developing jump kicks when a spear does the job far more efficiently?

That aside, I'd say rising kick's the most useless. Nice as a warmup, but as far as a defensive kick goes, it's kinda slow and the risk vs reward is terrible.

 

[shesulsa]

Well ... I can say I've seen a man jump so high, his hips were higher than 6 feet in the air ... and he once told me he could jump nowhere near as high as a grandmaster he knew. So ... yeahj ... but that's a topic for another thread.

I still think most kicks above the waist are suspect as to their efficacy in th3 r34l str33t ... but I think they have use in agility training.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Special techniques, of any sort in any art, are only as useful as the combination of skill in execution, timing, and surprise. A special technique well practiced and sparingly used at the right time is highly useful. Used regularly or multiple times, your opponent figures it out and easily counters or at least defends. Fact is that solid basics win fights. The occasional flashy technique worked in here and there is highly effective. But don't expect to win fights if you try to look like the Power Rangers all the time.

Daniel