RTKDCMB
Senior Master
That is just your opinion.
More mma bashing....
- Thread starter Mephisto
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Danny T
Senior Master
Absolutely.
The length of time for some sparring is for cardio and conditioning. It also makes the self defense people understand how much work goes into be prepared for a competition and the competition people also see how well the self defense people can fight. Mindset and strategies are different. The ability to punch, kick, choke is the same, the ability to do so under heavy pressure is also the same. One may fight for the time limit where as the other may be just to get away or to get to a position of safety or for example to deploy a firearm if so needed.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
That is their pressure testing? That was almost a vacuum.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Oh, come on, now. The TMA bashing is ridiculous, and inappropriate. But when's the last time you've budged on any of your opinions? I haven't seen it.
Which is, of course, exactly as some of us train in other places.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
I wouldn't put too much stock in wehat they have to say considering that anyone seems to be able to become an instructor within 6 months without any prior training just by downloading a teaching packag:
Kuntao Dragon Certification
Kuntao Dragon Certification
Danny T
Senior Master
This is not pressure testing by any comparison to what we do and I would not call anything I saw in this video as sparring. Some light drilling action but by no means sparring or pressure testing.
Shai Hulud
Purple Belt
My ex-man brought his new girlfriend; She's like "OMG", but I'm just gonna shake it - and to the fella over there with the hella good hair, won't you come on over, baby, we can shake, shake, shake!
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
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Look at Danny t,s set up. His sd/tmaers can sit in the same cage as the mmaers. And spar. It is objective pressure testing. If you combat scenario I feel you are being too subjective. Especially if you just combat scenario.
I still don't think we have found one good video of combat scenarios yet.
- Thread Starter
- #50
Don't give up! Present your evidence and present it again, sometimes the same information presented in a new context makes sense. Although it can be frustrating when you're dealing with hard heads like me. For me a video of a guy using TMA to hold his own against an mma guy is evidence enough. I value TMA I just think that mma sparring, which in this case just means nhb sparring in all ranges is the best way to test an art for reality. For example, I box, I spar with a boxing ruleset. The boxing ruleset is a specialized focus that gets you better at boxing. But I don't tell myself that it's the best way to train for self defense and that mma guys are unrealistic because of all the broken glass and needles on the streetz.
I largely agree with him too, so it's not just his opinion. I also get the impression that many others also think the same here. The mma all ranges aspect of sparring is the most realistic way to train to handle an aggressive attacker. Now as k man said you can at with the mma format and do it with multiple opponents, or short duration or any specific objective. You can also spar with an mma format and still to compliant drills too and flow or sensitivity drills. The point is a basic ability to handle yourself while fighting in all ranges is crucial to self defense ability.
I don't need to provide evidence. There is no evidence. There is only opinion. One of my training partners is a BJJ blackbelt and highly ranked in several other styles. Three of my Krav guys are ex MMA. One of my Krav guys is ex BJJ. Years ago I used to box. I know how my training stacks up but I'm not making any claims of being better than others, or bagging other styles, and I try to make my training as realistic as possible.
Now you think that MMA sparring is the best way. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. I think there are other ways that are equally effective if not more so. That is my opinion and the opinion of others. When you have systems that are not suited to competition and where those practitioners don't compete it is illogical to claim that as a result they are not up to the quality or ability of MMA guys. There is no point in banging on about which is better because we are never going to agree.
To be honest, I don't see anything that interests me in MMA. Each to their own, but I have no doubt as to the effectiveness of a person trained in MMA to defend them self in a street situation. What I do like is some of what I see in BJJ, and I am not too proud to take bits from anywhere to add to my training. Even so, I am not training to stay on the ground.
But we are still coming from two diametrically opposed positions. At 66 I am not interested in competing. I finished with that years ago. Telling me that unless I try out what I teach in the ring my training sucks is certainly less than endearing. The training I provide is not for athletes training to compete against other highly trained fighters at the peak of their ability. I am teaching average girls and guys from the community how to defend themselves in the unlikely situation that they need to physically defend themselves. I do not teach with a set of rules. I teach what is allowable within the law.
What some MMA guys here fail to acknowledge is that many martial artists are not vaguely interested in fighting competitively. That in no way means that they aren't effective in what they do.
As to providing videos of TMA guys holding there own with MMA guys, I'm not going to waste my time. Firstly, we can't even agree on what TMA is. Within my understanding of TMAs, I know of no TMA guys who would be vaguely interested in that scenario as most TMAs don't compete. I'm sure that you will find countless videos on Youtube to prove your point. Forgive me if I don't seem overly impressed.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Yup...Same argument, only the names have changed...... seen this tired old, back and forth, MMA vs TMA argument so many times over the last 9 years... nothing new...same stuff...over and over again......and it is accomplishing the same exact thing it does every time.....nothing of any use....yup....I'm bored with it...moving on.....good luck storming the castle...or tilting at windmills....which ever you prefer
Xue out...peace
Xue out...peace
I don't if I should really. Don't want to upset anybody with my ignorance. But for one, the following I cannot agree with. May have been just a generalization, but looks more of an assertion to me.
To this day many folks consider MMA and Kickboxing style sparring to be an essential part of learning to use their art effectively.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
For me the evidence of TMA practitioners being good is one where they were attacked in the street and they have successfully defended themselves without getting seriously hurt. Fortunately in the art that I study there are ample examples of people doing just that.
For the reality of what? For the reality of an MMA competition, you bet. When it comes to self defence there is only one way to be completely realistic and that is to get into real fights, everything else is a compromise. If you want to do full contact sparring you have to compromise by padding up or limiting your techniques to safer ones, so MMA sparring isn't really no holds barred. I have sen a lot of MMA fights on TV and there are plenty of things that are barred.Other arts approach realism in different ways but there are ALWAYS compromises.
An opinion is still just an opinion no matter how many people share it.
Of course all ranges of self defence need to be trained but do you think that MMA sparring is the only way to address it? Again, other arts address it differently and they don't have any significant trouble handling aggressive attackers.
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Spinedoc
Brown Belt
This ^^^^^^^^...One thousand times....this.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think it's a fair statement, but it would be just as fair to say that many folks don't consider MMA and Kickboxing style sparring to be essential, as well. Hard to quantify "many."
Something to think about (maybe.) We criticize people who have never sparred for denouncing sparring. And we also tend to criticize people who have sparred (trained in other styles) and who denounce sparring. Sort of a catch 22 for the TMA crowd.
But on the other hand, more often than not, the folks who denounce sparring tend to fall back on their ample experience in styles that incorporate sparring. Is it not possible that they are able to apply the techniques and principles within their current style in part because they have developed some tacit, intangible benefits from their previous training model?
Just to be clear, I don't expect to change anyone's opinions. Just maybe food for thought.
- Thread Starter
- #57
No I don't think mma sparring is the only way. It's just part of the equation, along with compliant training, reflex, and flow drills.
Makes sense. The Kickboxers I know and have trained with find sparring quite essential. However more from a workout perspective. I have always viewed sparring as something that is a natural extension of training, and admittedly I don't always quite understand how someone could not like sparring. As I said that would be down my own ignorance as apposed to knowledge of any TMA.
I would say so. Perhaps much cross training or just learning another style, would benefit. Then again, perhaps a detrimental affect may get highlighted. Modifying an action can be just mental, but can also be physical. The medium between the two though can blur. Perhaps not a great deal, but enough to leave an opening if one solely relies on technique. If I have read you correctly here, that's how I see it anyway.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
And TMA's have different sparring, along with compliant training, reflex, and flow drills.
Getting back to the original link ...
Mr. Sterling (or Mr. Clear, if that's him writing under a psuedonym) is indeed bashing MMA in order to promote his own system. I don't have a problem with that. MMA started out as a way for certain individuals to promote their own art at the expense of others, and there was a lot of style bashing along the way. Goose, gander, yadda, yadda.
He's quite right that there are "unrealistic" elements to MMA that place limitations on the conclusions you can draw and benefits you can gain from that form of training. (The lack of weapons and multiple opponents are just two of many such elements.)
The part he doesn't acknowledge is that every single form of training possible, including his own, has unrealistic elements and important limitations. That doesn't mean you can't learn from them or gain benefits from them. It just means that you have to keep an open mind and figure out which lessons apply to the situation you are training for. MMA has plenty of useful lessons for a martial artist (of whatever style) training for street self-defense. It also has plenty of lessons which are not so applicable for that context. You have to be able to figure out which is which.
If you want to see MMA with weapons, watch footage from a Dog Brothers gathering. If you want to see MMA with multiple opponents, watch some of the promotions coming out of Russia lately.
As others have noted, the bits shown in Mr. Clear's promo video are not what I would call pressure testing by any stretch of imagination. The may have some value in their appropriate place, but they are not pressure testing.
Mr. Sterling (or Mr. Clear, if that's him writing under a psuedonym) is indeed bashing MMA in order to promote his own system. I don't have a problem with that. MMA started out as a way for certain individuals to promote their own art at the expense of others, and there was a lot of style bashing along the way. Goose, gander, yadda, yadda.
He's quite right that there are "unrealistic" elements to MMA that place limitations on the conclusions you can draw and benefits you can gain from that form of training. (The lack of weapons and multiple opponents are just two of many such elements.)
The part he doesn't acknowledge is that every single form of training possible, including his own, has unrealistic elements and important limitations. That doesn't mean you can't learn from them or gain benefits from them. It just means that you have to keep an open mind and figure out which lessons apply to the situation you are training for. MMA has plenty of useful lessons for a martial artist (of whatever style) training for street self-defense. It also has plenty of lessons which are not so applicable for that context. You have to be able to figure out which is which.
If you want to see MMA with weapons, watch footage from a Dog Brothers gathering. If you want to see MMA with multiple opponents, watch some of the promotions coming out of Russia lately.
As others have noted, the bits shown in Mr. Clear's promo video are not what I would call pressure testing by any stretch of imagination. The may have some value in their appropriate place, but they are not pressure testing.
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