More mma bashing....

[Tames D]

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First all, I hate it when martial artists constantly quote Bruce Lee, who now in the MMA world has been replaced by ugh, Greg Jackson. We have the same thing, particular in my style of traditional karate with all sorts of instructors denoting themselves not just Masters, but Grand Masters, some even akin to the Supreme Grand Master. If Bruce Lee represented any ideal, it was INDIVIDUAL expression of marital art concepts.
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Second, Bruce Lee was famous for his ongoing criticisms of traditional karates such a I practice. He referred to the traditional karate's as the "classical mess." Bruce Less then went on to demonstrate the superiority of his approach over the traditional karates, boxing, etc. in his demonstrations & most clearly in his films. So then you write that style doesn't matter after you quote Bruce Lee???
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Again, I realize this is a discussion forum, but consistency in thought is important.... if you want to get your point across to instructor-level members. Replace "arguing" with "evaluation" and your post will then be a solid jumping off point for your views.

So, if I'm reading you right, you don't like Bruce Lee quotes because he disagreed with what you believe in? Your feelings get hurt pretty easily. Suck it up and move on.

 

[drop bear]

When Machida came into the MMA arena & confounded so many competitors (& their MMA trainers), we didn't observe Machida doing so by tactically punching basically the same as those he defeated. To the serious MMA observer / trainer, the question is why is Machida prevailing? Particularly when the traditonal karate base is in the definite minority of competitors and even rarer when you look at the MMA training schools such as the much lauded Greg Jackson / Mike Winkeljohn & Co.

I imagine machida used the same methods of pressure testing that everybody else does.

 

[hoshin1600]

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All this bashing talk comes across to me as wanting to sound important to the world by posting opinionated text on a forum board.
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I feel MMA makes a great laboratory to test one's anyone's martial arts concepts & skills in a condoned, full contact environment.
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In the shoes of an MMA competitor, you are facing a guy who is determined to punch or maybe kick you into UN-fightable condition,
GNP you to same, or choke or lock your body into non-usable form. To me, there's a physical confrontation that's definitely one of 'pressure testing.'
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As a traditional karateka, the style vs. style debate makes MMA particularly interesting. Prime examples of karate-based fighters are two well-known UFC competitors, Lyoto Machida & "Wonderboy" Thompson."
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A favorite bout of mine there, was the Thompson vs. Brown UFC fight, where Wonderboy lost. My concern, from viewing Wonderboy's pre-fight open workout vid, was that his sport-based exhibition wouldn't be strong enough to handle Brown's "in-your-face" aggression.
Results proved my fears. As a karateka, was rooting for Wonderboy all the way; Brown got the deserved win.

Since i have no clue what Shotonoob is ranting about, i would like to say that i agree with his post as quoted. MMA is a good testing ground for ones own ability. so i think we agree ...not sure what the ranting is about ,,
Shotonoob hates when people talk about Bruce Lee ....well other than Machida and Matt Hughes and Gracie i have no clue who he is talking about since i dont watch UFC or any TV for that matter. some people like myself quote Bruce because he is a known figure in my generation... and the quote sums up my own personal feelings and that was the intent of my post..it was not a response to Shotonoob or anyone else .. if you dont like Bruce so be it ..doesnt bother me one bit..so moving on......

 

[hoshin1600]

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Right, that is exactly how people come to the conclusions that Hoshin1600 complained about in the post you quoted. Analogies like yours make for clever cocktail talk are only vague rhetoric. This is exactly the significance of the legacy of Gichin Funakoshi who designed an exacting curriculum and a highly detailed syllabus on training traditional karate arts.
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Even Greg Jackson, who I'm not fond of, is known for his detailed compendium of MMA techniques taken from different fighting styles, and his analytical decision-tree work, competitor specific.
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The suggestion that somehow MMA & TMA are in some kind of separate, exclusive environment is ridiculous. The fact that one is a sport and one is a mental discipline doesn't mean an MMA competitor can't overcome a karateka in the Octagon, or vice versa. Physical conflict is the union.

um....again no clue here. some rant about me complaining...my only complaint is that i would rather see informative and usefull posts rather than emotional rants.

First all, I hate it when martial artists constantly quote Bruce Lee, who now in the MMA world has been replaced by ugh, Greg Jackson.

what does this mean? Bruce was an actor and MA ..i dont know who Greg Jackson is, but how he replaced Bruce i cant make sense of.

If Bruce Lee represented any ideal, it was INDIVIDUAL expression of marital art concepts.

agreed , that was the part of my point

Second, Bruce Lee was famous for his ongoing criticisms of traditional karates such a I practice. He referred to the traditional karate's as the "classical mess." Bruce Less then went on to demonstrate the superiority of his approach over the traditional karates, boxing, etc. in his demonstrations & most clearly in his films. So then you write that style doesn't matter after you quote Bruce Lee???

first Bruce was critical of his own practice in Chinese martial arts " the classical Mess" i am not aware of him bashing other arts. your comment on Individual expression made me think you understood his concepts then... this points to the fact you have no clue what he was about.
Me personaly ,i hate when people comment on Bruce Lee when they dont understand what they are commenting about.

The suggestion that somehow MMA & TMA are in some kind of separate, exclusive environment is ridiculous.

maybe this was made in response to another poster but ,yeah i agree that was what i was saying. i said if a punch is valid it will work in any venue.

I'm not interested in tennis courts, but in what tools & techniques, conditioning, etc, Hughes used to make mincemeat of the 'invincible' Gracie.

ok i agree , however the real answer is that Gracie is not invincible he has lost many times. Hughes was much younger and in great shape. Gracie is older and not in as good of shape and everyone is well aware of what a ground game is now. it is no longer an unknown factor. BJJ is constantly evolving and getting better. while im sure it brought in the ticket sales who in their right mind would think Gracie could beat Hughes?

 

[hoshin1600]

i would like to remind people that this was the original topic

and i think most of us agree that this guy looks like a complete fool and he is the one bashing MMA in an attempt to validate his own training.
this was the point of my first post. that people have their own version of reality and this guy certainly has his own.

 

[hoshin1600]

one thing i dont think i have read in this thread is, exactly what is a pressure test? for me the test is not about trying my punch against anothers or which works better, a stand up style or a ground fighting style. rather its about the will to fight within the individual. Sam sheridan's book "a fighter's heart" does a good job at exploring this. my pressure test would be to question my heart and will to fight. every person is hard wired to experience the fight or flight brain wave pattern during a high stress situation. we may start with a strong will to fight but there is a point where with enough pain or fear that fight response in the brain will turn to flight. this for me is the pressure test. how much stress pressure can i take before my will to fight leaves and becomes a flight response. for some that flight response is immediate. they wont even admit to themselves that they are actually afraid to attempt a test. so they come up with cleaver ways to get around it. for others that turning point is based on pain tolerance and once the fear of more pain kicks in they turn to flight. but for some the will to fight remains and they have found that the will and drive to continue fighting leads them to victory. the pressure test is like a sliding scale an i want to know where i land on that scale. the goal of course is to move to a point where fear will not cripple your performance.
when i think about it this way the argument about eye gouging and rules is really irrelevant. because i am not pitting my style against another. it is not about comparisions. its about my desire VS his desire and who will cave first. the heart , will and desire to continue to fight even when injured, scared and in pain is part of the human experience and cannot be tossed aside as unimportant because it is the direct connection between fighting in the ring, octagon, bar room or in your own home during a home invasion. punches, kicks and techniques may be the vehicle for the expression of violence but the will to fight is the underlying current that carries and holds everything together.

 

[Hanzou]

i would like to remind people that this was the original topic

and i think most of us agree that this guy looks like a complete fool and he is the one bashing MMA in an attempt to validate his own training.
this was the point of my first post. that people have their own version of reality and this guy certainly has his own.

What set off the typical TMA vs MMA argument was the fact that we've seen this before. Whether we hear TMA stylists say that MMA "only works in the ring", or some other nonsense, its the same song and dance anytime articles like this pop up. There was a similar article that popped up in the Karate forums recently with a similar theme, and if I really felt like looking, I'm sure I could find more from just about every TMA style out there.

Sad thing is, this video doesn't surprise me. Whether its the laughable anti-grappling vids, sparring vids, or vids like this, they all come out looking the same. Its to the point now that if someone wanted to learn self defense, I simply couldn't recommend a TMA school in good conscience.

 

[RTKDCMB]

What set off the typical TMA vs MMA argument was the fact that we've seen this before. Whether we hear TMA stylists say that MMA "only works in the ring", or some other nonsense, its the same song and dance anytime articles like this pop up. There was a similar article that popped up in the Karate forums recently with a similar theme, and if I really felt like looking, I'm sure I could find more from just about every TMA style out there.

Turnabout is fair play.

Its to the point now that if someone wanted to learn self defense, I simply couldn't recommend a TMA school in good conscience.

That is because you don't know the first thing about TMA.

 

[hoshin1600]

Hanzou while your posts usually irritate me. i can say...i agree with you on this one. but honestly i have to say that its only your experiences with the TMA community and not ALL that are like that. maybe most ,,but not all. i know this is only the internet and everyone says things that cant be backed up but for myself i have done a a few different styles and yes most were not that great but i was in one karate school that was really good. we even traveled a few times per month to train in a MMA school that produced Joe Lauzon. but at the same time, in the same organization there were a few schools that were a complete joke. behind their backs we would all make fun of them but we were of the same organization and same style. i am sure there were people that would judge what i do by what they were doing and its embarrising. for all the years i have been training i can say that the number of practitioners that i honestly respect i can count on the fingers of one hand. but that doesnt mean there arent more out there. i just havnt met them yet. i remind myself often about how i was a mid level black belt and instructor when i walked into that karate school and got my rear end handed to me. my new instructor made it a point to really show me i wasnt diddly squat and it opened my eyes. so from now on i am open to learning no matter the source.

 

[Blindside]

one thing i dont think i have read in this thread is, exactly what is a pressure test? for me the test is not about trying my punch against anothers or which works better, a stand up style or a ground fighting style. rather its about the will to fight within the individual. Sam sheridan's book "a fighter's heart" does a good job at exploring this. my pressure test would be to question my heart and will to fight. every person is hard wired to experience the fight or flight brain wave pattern during a high stress situation. we may start with a strong will to fight but there is a point where with enough pain or fear that fight response in the brain will turn to flight. this for me is the pressure test. how much stress pressure can i take before my will to fight leaves and becomes a flight response. for some that flight response is immediate. they wont even admit to themselves that they are actually afraid to attempt a test. so they come up with cleaver ways to get around it. for others that turning point is based on pain tolerance and once the fear of more pain kicks in they turn to flight. but for some the will to fight remains and they have found that the will and drive to continue fighting leads them to victory. the pressure test is like a sliding scale an i want to know where i land on that scale. the goal of course is to move to a point where fear will not cripple your performance.

I consider another part of pressure testing is my ability to execute my techniques under both adrenaline and against another's skillset, two separate but obviously related things.

Mindset: Assuming you are in "fight" mode and aren't at flight or freeze, then how does what you trained work? Can you deal with the adrenal dump, can your skillset survive it? When you get a large adrenaline dump does it negate your fine motor skills? Do you tense up? Does that impact your ability to throw shots with relaxed power?

Skillset: Testing against another's skillset, this is more about how your technique matches another persons, less about the mental side of things and more about the learned skills.

I don't see the massive divide between MMA and TMA that some are setting positions on. I think MMA does a great job with testing opposing technique (skillset), providing their students with workable skills even if impacted by adrenaline (skillset), getting students used to the violence necessary to win the fight (mindset) , desensitizing fighters to adrenaline dumps (mindset).

I am curious how some other TMA test their mental clarity and skillsets against adrenaline dumps, because I view that as the greatest obstacle to "mental clarity" or whatever is getting . As a TMAer myself, I don't get any sort of adrenaline rush with my in school sparring, I am too comfortable with knowledge of my students for that to be an issue even with full contact level sparring. I do get adrenaline dumps when I participate in Dog Brothers events, which is why I am now attending them, I consider that critical to my growth as a martial artists. The TMA I do, Pekiti Tirsia KaIi, has a mindset is about having an aggressive attacking mentality designed to put the opponent on the defensive and then take advantage of that defense, but just because we train for a particular mentality that does not negate the impacts of adrenaline.

 

[hoshin1600]

good post Blindside
all points i agree with and maybe i should have brought that up as well but in a heated debate sometimes details like that get ignored in the emotion. but i feel this could lead us back down the rabbit hole. within the MMA community is seems to me the skill set is getting homogeneous. the die is really being cast as to what IS and what IS NOT MMA.
i think UFC was the great wake up call to the TMA community. from my experience there is no skill set under adrenaline dump or pressure test in the a TMA. i feel this was the great weekness and the pink elephant in the room that no one wanted to talk about. many people laughed at Fred Ettish but for me(if your out there Fred i thank you!! ) he woke us up and absolved us of our prior sins. he took a beating so we could all be released from the bonds of tradition and false dogma.
as for myself i used to visit other schools of any style and often i was met by an attitude of superiority, dispite the fact i wasnt egotistical or challenging anyone. so i was constantly having to prove that what i was doing was valid.

 

[drop bear]

one thing i dont think i have read in this thread is, exactly what is a pressure test? for me the test is not about trying my punch against anothers or which works better, a stand up style or a ground fighting style. rather its about the will to fight within the individual. Sam sheridan's book "a fighter's heart" does a good job at exploring this. my pressure test would be to question my heart and will to fight. every person is hard wired to experience the fight or flight brain wave pattern during a high stress situation. we may start with a strong will to fight but there is a point where with enough pain or fear that fight response in the brain will turn to flight. this for me is the pressure test. how much stress pressure can i take before my will to fight leaves and becomes a flight response. for some that flight response is immediate. they wont even admit to themselves that they are actually afraid to attempt a test. so they come up with cleaver ways to get around it. for others that turning point is based on pain tolerance and once the fear of more pain kicks in they turn to flight. but for some the will to fight remains and they have found that the will and drive to continue fighting leads them to victory. the pressure test is like a sliding scale an i want to know where i land on that scale. the goal of course is to move to a point where fear will not cripple your performance.
when i think about it this way the argument about eye gouging and rules is really irrelevant. because i am not pitting my style against another. it is not about comparisions. its about my desire VS his desire and who will cave first. the heart , will and desire to continue to fight even when injured, scared and in pain is part of the human experience and cannot be tossed aside as unimportant because it is the direct connection between fighting in the ring, octagon, bar room or in your own home during a home invasion. punches, kicks and techniques may be the vehicle for the expression of violence but the will to fight is the underlying current that carries and holds everything together.

there are two aspects. One is the mental will to win and one is the chance your techniques are going to work. And best case is you want both.

Some techniques work better with more pressure and contact than others. And this is because as you change the levels of contact you change the environment you are fighting in.
The double leg for example is very effective if i am really trying to punch your head off. But not so good if i am not committed.

Some techniques only become exposed as an issue after you fight a quality guy. Fighting with your hands down may not be a concern untill the other guy can take advantage.

 

[drop bear]

I don't see the massive divide between MMA and TMA that some are setting positions on. I think MMA does a great job with testing opposing technique (skillset), providing their students with workable skills even if impacted by adrenaline (skillset), getting students used to the violence necessary to win the fight (mindset) , desensitizing fighters to adrenaline dumps (mindset).

There are also tmaers who spar. Which seems to get ignored.

 

[Mephisto]

So, if I'm reading you right, you don't like Bruce Lee quotes because he disagreed with what you believe in? Your feelings get hurt pretty easily. Suck it up and move on.

I don't like bruce lee quotes either, the martial arts community has as unhealthy obsession with them. Yeah, a lot of them make sense but people quote bruce lee like they quote the bible. Bruce lee is not scripture, remember he was a movie star and an athlete with a lot of charisma but there's no evidence he was really a skilled fighter. Now Kano, Ali, even chuck Norris, they are worth quoting and much less played out.

 

[Tames D]

I don't like bruce lee quotes either, the martial arts community has as unhealthy obsession with them. Yeah, a lot of them make sense but people quote bruce lee like they quote the bible. Bruce lee is not scripture, remember he was a movie star and an athlete with a lot of charisma but there's no evidence he was really a skilled fighter. Now Kano, Ali, even chuck Norris, they are worth quoting and much less played out.

I'm also not a big fan of Bruce Lee quotes. I'm a JKD practitioner, but Lee is not the reason behind it. I have a problem with the reasons given for the hating. And as far as comparing his quotes to the bible and scripture, give me a break. There is alot of subject matter in the bible that is questionable. And Chuck Norris quotes? He's never been in a street fight. Good tournament player but not someone I would want to quote.

 

[Hanzou]

That is because you don't know the first thing about TMA.

Oh yes I do. The majority of my training was in TMA styles, or at least styles that attempted to pattern themselves as "traditional" in order to hide their glaring flaws. I think one of the disadvantages that TMAs tend to have is that they attempt to be all things to all people. More modern styles make it known that if you want to learn something not emphasized in the style you're currently training in, you should cross train. My instructor for example says pretty plainly that if you want to become good at punching and kicking, then you should cross train

On the other hand, if I were still doing Karate, my instructor would be showing me some half-assed choke holds, take downs, or even whip out some Sais or a Staff in an attempt to prove to me that Karate was a "complete system". I never "really" learned how to stop a takedown or a choke in Karate, but I'm sure that if I asked, my sensei would come up with some crazy maneuver that's never been tested in any sensible or reliable form whatsoever. However, since some Okinawan or Japanese guy formalized it 100 years ago, its still better than those MMA guys because their stuff "only works in the ring".

Like I said, its all the same song and dance. The difference now is that people are realizing the emperor has no clothes, thanks to social media, YouTube, and MMA competitions. For example, if this guy didn't show a Youtube, we'd be seeing those sequenced photos from Black Belt magazine and thinking this guy knew what he was talking about.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Oh yes I do.

So far that has not been reflected in your posts.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When Machida came into the MMA arena & confounded so many competitors (& their MMA trainers), we didn't observe Machida doing so by tactically punching basically the same as those he defeated. To the serious MMA observer / trainer, the question is why is Machida prevailing? Particularly when the traditonal karate base is in the definite minority of competitors and even rarer when you look at the MMA training schools such as the much lauded Greg Jackson / Mike Winkeljohn & Co.

Machida has been successful for much the same reasons that other top fighters have been successful. He's in fantastic shape, he's rounded out his striking game with high-level grappling (BJJ & sumo), and he does the right kind of sparring (continuous striking + grappling sparring with contact with high level partners). The fact that his striking base is in karate rather than in boxing or muay thai is less important than how he trains.

Again, Royce Gracie was another 'guru,' the champion of the BJJ revolution. BJJ was the "it" style for MMA. Practically unbeatable, with all pointing to the great success of Royce Gracie who all the TMA strikers wilted in front of ...... YEAH.
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What a I loved about this bout, was that MH, a MMA boxer / wrestler, basically sailed right through RG's defense (if you can call it that) and flattened him like a pancake with GNP wrestling, finishing RC with yes, a submission! So much for big name gurus....
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I'm not interested in tennis courts, but in what tools & techniques, conditioning, etc, Hughes used to make mincemeat of the 'invincible' Gracie.

Royce was "unbeatable" in the beginning of the UFC because he had a lifetime of training in a specialized area of combat, he had experience in challenge matches against typical stand-up strikers, and most of his opponents had no idea how to fight on the ground and little or no experience in style vs style match-ups.

By the time of his match with Hughes, the secrets of BJJ were out. Hughes had a good understanding of BJJ as well as being a more well-rounded grappler and martial artist. He was younger, stronger, and had more fight experience. Royce had none of the advantages that he had in his earlier career.

what does this mean? Bruce was an actor and MA ..i dont know who Greg Jackson is, but how he replaced Bruce i cant make sense of.

Greg Jackson is a top MMA coach. I'm not sure what he has to do with Bruce Lee.

 

[Mephisto]

Oh yes I do. The majority of my training was in TMA styles, or at least styles that attempted to pattern themselves as "traditional" in order to hide their glaring flaws. I think one of the disadvantages that TMAs tend to have is that they attempt to be all things to all people. More modern styles make it known that if you want to learn something not emphasized in the style you're currently training in, you should cross train. My instructor for example says pretty plainly that if you want to become good at punching and kicking, then you should cross train

On the other hand, if I were still doing Karate, my instructor would be showing me some half-assed choke holds, take downs, or even whip out some Sais or a Staff in an attempt to prove to me that Karate was a "complete system". I never "really" learned how to stop a takedown or a choke in Karate, but I'm sure that if I asked, my sensei would come up with some crazy maneuver that's never been tested in any sensible or reliable form whatsoever. However, since some Okinawan or Japanese guy formalized it 100 years ago, its still better than those MMA guys because their stuff "only works in the ring".

Like I said, its all the same song and dance. The difference now is that people are realizing the emperor has no clothes, thanks to social media, YouTube, and MMA competitions. For example, if this guy didn't show a Youtube, we'd be seeing those sequenced photos from Black Belt magazine and thinking this guy knew what he was talking about.

I think you make good point. A lot of schools would like to say they have all the answers. Many styles claim to be a "complete system" some are more complete than others but many fall short. A lot of FMA is guilty of this, I say this as an FMA practitioner. It's important for a system or school to recognize its specialty and excel at it. Many martial artists claim to be humble, but they also claim to have all the answers.

You cant excel at everything all the time. This is what I noticed with my time in hapkido. On the surface hapkido appears to be very well rounded and this claim is made by a lot of hapkido guys. It's somewhat true, there are many skillsets in the hkd curriculum but I noticed I knew just enough to do everything poorly. Time was too divided and I never got good at any one area. I think it would be very time consuming to perform in every area of training at a high level.

 

[Hanzou]

I found a few more vids from the author in the article;

Did you know you can stop a grappler by walking around in a circle and pushing the big meanie-head away with your palms?

Yeah, me neither.