MMA is 100% legitimate for the street and SD, to think otherwise is close minded, IMO
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MMA would never work in a real fight.
- Thread starter Stealthy
- Start date
MMA is 100% legitimate for the street and SD, to think otherwise is close minded, IMO
Im not saying disagreeing with me is close minded I'm saying not giving MMA a chance as a SD martial art is close minded. I have no problem with different opinions for sure.
i honestly can't tell if you're being serious here!! I'm guessing so!! There is plenty of disengaging in MMA, plenty of staying away and only engaging when you want. One of the best MMA fighters of our time is known for this elusive tactics in the cage, confusing his opponents with elusive movements.
Lol, you act like someone needs to be taught how to "run away"........ Are you serious here? In MMA like any other martial art, if you don't want to engage and you want to flee, you simply do that . Thing is with MMA training it will be just as easy if not more easy to flee if that is what you want to do.
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RTKDCMB
Senior Master
Of course they arn't, especially if you want to deflect away from the fact that MMA is a great art to learn for SD.:boing1:
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Okay, one more time.
And there is nothing about any comment of "testing"... but sure, Judo's context isn't self defence either. That, though, doesn't mean it can't be used in a self defence context... which, if you paid attention, is exactly what I say about MMA.
For one thing, you're looking at a superficial similarity, the actual specifics and context, as well as the reasoning behind the approaches, are wildly different. Additionally, the application of JKD's "absorb what is useful, discard what is not" doesn't actually fit MMA's methodology... there, it's "do what gets you a win"... wildly different, mate.
Oh, and no. Judo is not a self defence martial art. It's a competitive martial art. It can, of course, be used in a self defence context.... but I have no idea what that has to do with anything I wrote....
That wasn't a put down, son. It was me saying "sure, I'll wait for you to come back".
Oh boy... again, try reading what was actually written, instead of deciding you know what I'm saying before taking in the words.
How about reality? Any problem with that? Go back to the start of the thread. I have said, repeatedly, that MMA is not designed for self defence. It is designed for a very different context (competition in a cage)... but it can certainly provide physical skills that can be very applicable and usable in self defence. Thinking that's me saying that I don't give MMA a chance is just plain ignoring the reality of what I'm saying.
Additionally, MMA is not trained as a self defence art. Why? Because that would take time away from match preparation, which is the real reason behind MMA. Can it be used for SD? Yes. But saying that that makes it designed for it is to ignore reality.
There is a huge difference between disengaging due to a stalemate or because the opponent is gaining the upper hand in order to then re-engage, and looking for an opportunity to escape (tactically). If you aren't aware of that, then you have no idea about contextual tactical methodology, and are way out of your depth in this conversation.
Actually, yes, you do need to be taught how to "run away". It's called a tactical retreat, and there are a large number of rules and principles that need to be followed. Armies practice them for a reason.
Thing is with MMA training, you don't train to escape... so you don't. You don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training... I mean, you were up against three people, and still didn't think to escape? Case in point.
Yes, they are.
No, RTKDCMB was correct... they are very different things, and change meaning depending on the context. MMA is an okay approach for combative skills that have some application in self defence... it's not a great art to learn for SD. How can I say that? It's simply not designed for it. At all. It's designed for something rather different. And, unless you can recognise what the difference is, you're not in a position to argue.
Read again. I was saying that your description, specifically the comment that MMA "addresses many forms of fighting" was incorrect. It addresses one. That's it. Just one. MMA. Just the one.
And there is nothing about any comment of "testing"... but sure, Judo's context isn't self defence either. That, though, doesn't mean it can't be used in a self defence context... which, if you paid attention, is exactly what I say about MMA.
No.
For one thing, you're looking at a superficial similarity, the actual specifics and context, as well as the reasoning behind the approaches, are wildly different. Additionally, the application of JKD's "absorb what is useful, discard what is not" doesn't actually fit MMA's methodology... there, it's "do what gets you a win"... wildly different, mate.
First off, I don't feel there are any such things as "self defence martial arts"... nothing I've ever seen fits the description, when looked at objectively. Secondly, I don't hope to distance MMA from anything other than things that aren't MMA. But I do have to say, if you've trained in SD-centric systems, either they didn't know what they were teaching, or you didn't pay attention.
Okay... where's the self defence training from MMA coming out? Honestly, what I read here is a lack of awareness, a lack of de-escalation, a lack of escape strategies, a lack of focus on the reality of the situation, and a lack of ability to tactically deal with a group. I also note that it's essentially a one-on-one encounter where you went overboard, and brought his friend and girlfriend into it. You took too long, didn't manage the group, didn't have any self defence aspects, and only are concerned with fighting. To me, that entire story is a fail, from a SD perspective... but it's also what I'd expect from an MMA practitioner (tactically).
Which is different to any other fighting system how?
No, son, I was talking about modern MMA. I mentioned the origin of the term to demonstrate where it was not necessarily the best description of what is currently seen. Read properly, yeah?
Oh, and no. Judo is not a self defence martial art. It's a competitive martial art. It can, of course, be used in a self defence context.... but I have no idea what that has to do with anything I wrote....
Which are two very different things. Cross over? Sure. But that's not the same.
That wasn't a put down, son. It was me saying "sure, I'll wait for you to come back".
Oh boy... again, try reading what was actually written, instead of deciding you know what I'm saying before taking in the words.
How about reality? Any problem with that? Go back to the start of the thread. I have said, repeatedly, that MMA is not designed for self defence. It is designed for a very different context (competition in a cage)... but it can certainly provide physical skills that can be very applicable and usable in self defence. Thinking that's me saying that I don't give MMA a chance is just plain ignoring the reality of what I'm saying.
Additionally, MMA is not trained as a self defence art. Why? Because that would take time away from match preparation, which is the real reason behind MMA. Can it be used for SD? Yes. But saying that that makes it designed for it is to ignore reality.
There is a huge difference between disengaging due to a stalemate or because the opponent is gaining the upper hand in order to then re-engage, and looking for an opportunity to escape (tactically). If you aren't aware of that, then you have no idea about contextual tactical methodology, and are way out of your depth in this conversation.
Actually, yes, you do need to be taught how to "run away". It's called a tactical retreat, and there are a large number of rules and principles that need to be followed. Armies practice them for a reason.
Thing is with MMA training, you don't train to escape... so you don't. You don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training... I mean, you were up against three people, and still didn't think to escape? Case in point.
Yes, they are.
No, RTKDCMB was correct... they are very different things, and change meaning depending on the context. MMA is an okay approach for combative skills that have some application in self defence... it's not a great art to learn for SD. How can I say that? It's simply not designed for it. At all. It's designed for something rather different. And, unless you can recognise what the difference is, you're not in a position to argue.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Firstly, you're not actually correct there... secondly, it's not actually relevant. I'll explain.
First, to why you're not correct. By training in MMA, you can only become an MMA fighter (someone who fights using MMA), so to train MMA and not want to, or plan to, be an MMA fighter is rather bizarre. It'd be like saying you are learning French, but don't want to speak it.... or learn karate without becoming a karateka. Not really possible. Now, of course, you didn't mean that... you meant that not everyone who trains in MMA wants to, or plans on eventually, fighting in the ring competitively (either amateur or professional)... in which case, sure. But to say that that's not part of the reason they started MMA in the first place is to not acknowledge the actual drives, values, and perceptions that went into making the decision to walk into that gym. It's there in every single MMA trainee... if it wasn't, they wouldn't know about MMA in the first place... nor would they have a frame of reference for "success" to work towards (and no, I'm not talking about their personal success in competition if they don't want to compete, I'm talking about what makes them think it leads to success in application... in other words, exactly where your personal framework has come from). You're missing huge amounts of detail on the actual reasons here, from a psychological standpoint.
Now, why isn't it relevant? Because I'm not discussing what the art is offering a potential student, what benefits or requirements a student has, or anything similar. I'm looking (very objectively) at what the reality is. That's it. It really doesn't matter what the trainee wants to get out of MMA, as that doesn't alter what MMA is... wanting to get a healthy meal but being in Pizza Hut or McDonalds doesn't mean that whatever you order will automatically become healthy.
First, to why you're not correct. By training in MMA, you can only become an MMA fighter (someone who fights using MMA), so to train MMA and not want to, or plan to, be an MMA fighter is rather bizarre. It'd be like saying you are learning French, but don't want to speak it.... or learn karate without becoming a karateka. Not really possible. Now, of course, you didn't mean that... you meant that not everyone who trains in MMA wants to, or plans on eventually, fighting in the ring competitively (either amateur or professional)... in which case, sure. But to say that that's not part of the reason they started MMA in the first place is to not acknowledge the actual drives, values, and perceptions that went into making the decision to walk into that gym. It's there in every single MMA trainee... if it wasn't, they wouldn't know about MMA in the first place... nor would they have a frame of reference for "success" to work towards (and no, I'm not talking about their personal success in competition if they don't want to compete, I'm talking about what makes them think it leads to success in application... in other words, exactly where your personal framework has come from). You're missing huge amounts of detail on the actual reasons here, from a psychological standpoint.
Now, why isn't it relevant? Because I'm not discussing what the art is offering a potential student, what benefits or requirements a student has, or anything similar. I'm looking (very objectively) at what the reality is. That's it. It really doesn't matter what the trainee wants to get out of MMA, as that doesn't alter what MMA is... wanting to get a healthy meal but being in Pizza Hut or McDonalds doesn't mean that whatever you order will automatically become healthy.
You train with a mindset......or at least you should. MMA instills the mindset of a sport fighter not self defense. I haven't read the entire thread but I thought I saw Bas mentioned in a post and he is a great example of a guy who has delved into both worlds. With that being said I can guarantee you that were he put in a dangerous situation he wouldn't be carrying the mindset of an MMA fighter into a confrontation.
Obviously MMA training can teach you to fight but in my opinion it instills a less than stellar approach to defending yourself.
Obviously MMA training can teach you to fight but in my opinion it instills a less than stellar approach to defending yourself.
Okay, one more time.
Read again. I was saying that your description, specifically the comment that MMA "addresses many forms of fighting" was incorrect. It addresses one. That's it. Just one. MMA. Just the one.
You are simple wrong. Many MMA schools offer different arts on different nights and then fuse them on other nights. I believe you just have little to no experience with the MMA community and thus are making assumptions.
And there is nothing about any comment of "testing"... but sure, Judo's context isn't self defence either. That, though, doesn't mean it can't be used in a self defence context... which, if you paid attention, is exactly what I say about MMA
so Judo isn't a self defense martial art? Hmmm....... Lol, didn't the founder of Judo as we know it today, seek it out for SD reasons? Any art that is designed to help you defend yourself and family from harm is a SD martial art.
No.
For one thing, you're looking at a superficial similarity, the actual specifics and context, as well as the reasoning behind the approaches, are wildly different. Additionally, the application of JKD's "absorb what is useful, discard what is not" doesn't actually fit MMA's methodology... there, it's "do what gets you a win"... wildly different, mate.
you honestly don't have any idea about actual MMA training do you? You can't get past the UFC and the contests involved there and the rules.
First off, I don't feel there are any such things as "self defence martial arts"... nothing I've ever seen fits the description, when looked at objectively. Secondly, I don't hope to distance MMA from anything other than things that aren't MMA. But I do have to say, if you've trained in SD-centric systems, either they didn't know what they were teaching, or you didn't pay attention.
so know there are no martial arts that serve the practitioner for SD? Your last sentence there, did you come to that conclusion from the story I described?
Okay... where's the self defence training from MMA coming out? Honestly, what I read here is a lack of awareness, a lack of de-escalation, a lack of escape strategies, a lack of focus on the reality of the situation, and a lack of ability to tactically deal with a group. I also note that it's essentially a one-on-one encounter where you went overboard, and brought his friend and girlfriend into it. You took too long, didn't manage the group, didn't have any self defence aspects, and only are concerned with fighting. To me, that entire story is a fail, from a SD perspective... but it's also what I'd expect from an MMA practitioner (tactically).
all fair complaints, but the context of what I was explaining was to show how mixed martial arts helped me defend myself. As in what different arts blended to save me during that encounter. I didn't go into detail about the whole situation from start to finish, how it was 3 on about 5 (later more from each side). How we attempted to de-escalate the situation, how we avoided and fled 2 different times etc.
Which is different to any other fighting system how?
well a lot of arts show you one way and not a lot of arts teach you different blended techniques from numerous arts.
Oh, and no. Judo is not a self defence martial art. It's a competitive martial art. It can, of course, be used in a self defence context.... but I have no idea what that has to do with anything I wrote......
I think ALOT of people will disagree with you here.
That wasn't a put down, son. It was me saying "sure, I'll wait for you to come back".
hmm sure seemed to me you were suggesting my knowledge comes from watching YouTube and not actual experience
I have said, repeatedly, that MMA can certainly provide physical skills that can be very applicable and usable in self defence.
well good! Welcome aboard!
Additionally, MMA is not trained as a self defence art. Why? Because that would take time away from match preparation, which is the real reason behind MMA. Can it be used for SD? Yes. But saying that that makes it designed for it is to ignore reality.
lol, again most who train MMA are not preparing for a match and many schools train self defense specific training. But you wouldn't know that because you don't have much MMA experience.
There is a huge difference between disengaging due to a stalemate or because the opponent is gaining the upper hand in order to then re-engage, and looking for an opportunity to escape (tactically). If you aren't aware of that, then you have no idea about contextual tactical methodology, and are way out of your depth in this conversation.
not re-engaging because of fear or danger has to be taught how to be done. There is some magical way not fight and to run/escape if you want to. Of course you can learn to be more aware, etc. but don't act like fleeing is something an MMA practitioner won't be able to do. You were suggesting an MMA practitioner wouldn't know how to get away because all they are taught to do is attack. That's absurd and shows your extremely limited knowledge in the art.
Actually, yes, you do need to be taught how to "run away". It's called a tactical retreat, and there are a large number of rules and principles that need to be followed. Armies practice them for a reason.
armies!? Are you being serious!??? You think MMA practitioners only know how to attack, re-engage and under a certain set of rules.... toy are absolutely wrong....
Thing is with MMA training, you don't train to escape... so you don't. You don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training... I mean, you were up against three people, and still didn't think to escape? Case in point.
you're wrong and you also don't know the whole story. Making a conclusion off of what I wrote about a small context of the night, I know not your fault because I didn't give the whole story, was just showing a mix blend of fighting worked for me in defending myself.
.
Its interesting to see you talk about MMA as if you know the art. What experience do you have with it?
You just continue to show you don't know what you're talking about! Plenty (most) people who train MMA do not have a goal or desire to fight an MMA match. It's just the facts buddy! Just like a lot of people in Judo/Karate/BJJ/etc are not looking to compete. You like to circle talk, it's funny.
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Less than stellar in what sense? being on the ground? Not training to poke an eye out? Not training in awareness? Not training with weapons?
what art would you suggest for SD?
I have worked out in many "MMA" establishments. They don't teach SELF DEFENSE period. Can you train in an MMA establishment and defend yourself? Sure you can.....but you had best throw reality into the equation at some point in your training.
I don't think there is a best SD art which is why I don't practice one. I pull from every source and only techniques that have been proven and pressure tested through combat, law enforcement, security situations, etc. make it into my training regiment. Some people mistake what I do with MMA because it is indeed a "mix" of many things but there is a huge difference in MMA and RBSD. In RBSD I don't spend very much time training to "trade punches and kicks". My time is spent training to strike first, strike hard and finish the job. I'm not going to hug my attacker or hold his hand or congratulate him after an altercation so I don't train with that mindset
Thanks for the response what is RBSD? I would like to look into it.
oh and just because you use CAPS and say "period" no give backs doesn't make it so. I would assume that each MMA gym is different in its take on SD and how much they put into it if anything. I know most the gyms I have trained at have addressed SD but of course that doesn't mean all do.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Are "real fight" and "self defense" synonyms? Would a "self defense" art work in a real fight?
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
So then, if the question is, "Would MMA work in a real fight?" is the answer, 'Sometimes?"
And wouldn't that be the same answer for any style of martial art?
